Is there an ICE that can use either gasoline or diesel?

[CostasV]

It is just a discussion that I have with a friend.

Can it be an internal combustion engine that, perhaps with some minor modifications like turning on or off swithces, burns gasoline or diesel?

I guess not. At least I don't know of any engine that is widely used.

But could it be possible to built such an engine? Or the way that each fuel burns (pressure and temperature for ignition) makes it immpossible?

Regards,
Costas

 

[GregLocock]

Yes

A gas turbine could easily be made to burn either, and a gas turbine is an internal combustion engine.

If you want to restrict yourself to piston engines, then yes, you could design such an engine. It would not be a particularly good example of one or the other, and designing a device to vary the compression ratio (the least nasty alternative) would be the key to its success. Oh, I know, just restrict the gasoline mode to running at less than 60% throttle. That'll work.



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[CostasV]

Thanks for your immediate reply!

Well, since changing the compression ratio is (what I call) a major modification, you say that a gasoline-diesel piston engine can not be possible.

I have not understood exactly what you mean by "restricting the galoline mode at less than 60% throttle". Do you mean that a gasoline piston engine can burn diesel if the throttle does not open more than 60% of the total available area? For example a gasoline piston engine working in idle (where throttle is almost closed). Can it burn diesel?

Costas

 

[GregLocock]

No.

By a gasoline engine I mean one that uses gasoline. By a diesel engine I mean one that uses diesel fuel.

You may be trying to differentiate between a spark ignition engine and a compression ignition engine.

That is a whole different ball game.


Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[CostasV]

Thank you GregLocock, for your reply

...but I did not understand it.

Can a piston IC engine work by burning gasoline and diesel (only one type of fuel each time)? Without major modifications like changing compression ratio. A minor modification would be to switch on the electrical circuit for the spark plugs when burning gasoline, and to switch on the diesel pump when burning diesel.

As far as I know, the pressure and temperature for the ignition of each fuel is the reason that make such an engine impossible. But I could be wrong.

Has anyone seen such an engine?

Regards

Costas

 

[NickE]

I have. My uncle has an old 2cyl John Deere Tractor that susposedly can burn kerosene, gasoline, or diesel fuels. I dont know anything about it other than that was what I was told. I believe that diesel cycle engine will explode if fueled with gasoline.

 

[REDMANE]

Varsamidis

Engines that powered many military trucks used multi-fueled engines. These engines where mil-spec, non-electronic, turbo charged, compression ignited,extremely robust and could burn gasoline, diesel, JP fuels, mixed fuels including fuels mixed with used engine lubricating oil and or a combination of fuels. One of the manufactures for these engines that comes to mind was the White engine Co.

Surplus trucks with these engines are readily available and inexpensive.

Redmane

 

[mcintya]

I have also seen this type of engine in a few old tractors. However I did not see it in operation. The explanation I was given on how it worked was that the engine was started using gasoline, then once it warmed up, was switched over to "diesel" mode. I guess that the temperature would be high enough to support compression ignition with a lower compression ratio engine. I don't think it could be "cold started" on diesel alone.
I doubt this was very successful engine as I have never seen it in anything newer than a 1940's tractor.

 

[johnwm]

I have an old tractor that runs on petrol to start and TVO when warmed up. It has a fairly low (around 6:1) compression ratio and is spark ignition. TVO was commercially available in the UK until the early '70s and is now mixed from (mainly) paraffin (kerosene in the US), petrol and a few small additives. See

http://www.fofh.co.uk/tech/tvo.htm

Good Luck
johnwm
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[CCycle]

As Redmane and others point out, fifty and sixty years ago there were a lot of dual fuel and multi fuel diesels running around. None of these would pass today's emission standards.

I believe dual fuel engines could be developed that would pass the emission standards of today. The issues are the same. The lower molecule size gas would create less particulate. But the question is - why would you want such an engine? Are you willing to pay more for such and engine? Diesel fuel and gas costs roughly the same per gal yet diesel has higher fuel value. It also is safer, less toxic and lower volatility.

Fuel processing requires a mix of fuel type use. The crude separates into so much gas and so much diesel.
-- So I guess it would be nice to be able to switch at will.

 

[icrman]

The answer is yes. Like some have mentioned the multi fuel engines. And others have mentioned the old tractor engines that started on gasoline and then switched over to diesel.
What they had was an addition to the combustion chamber to reduce compression and a spark plug in there to ignite the gasoline. The multifuel engines are just a normal diesel engine that has a high enough compression ratio to autoignite the gasoline. The gasoline is injected the same as the diesel fuel is.

 

[evelrod]

A note from my son, recently retired from the Army (disabled). "The multi fuel Hummers run like crap and are always shutting down when you least expect ... (but) they will run on just about anything that will flow through a tube and ignite with air".
Also, if I recall correctly, the German airforce had engines that would start on gasoline and switch to a "coal slurry" of some sort. I guess if they could make that work diesel would be a piece of cake.

Rod

 

[RobWard]

I drove a Chieftan tank once and the guy who owned it said that it was a 2 stroke supercharged horizontally opposed engine that would run on just about anything liquid and combustible. (I forget the term for it but the pistons shared a combustion chamber.)

(He also said that the Harrier jump jet can run on pretty much anything...)

"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go past." Douglas Adams

 

[CostasV]

Thank you Greglocock, Redmane, micintya, Joghnwm, CCycle, Icrman, Evelrod and Robward for your replies.

I googled a little using keywords like "multifuel , multi fuel, bi fuel" etc and found some government liquidition about trucks that used multifuel engines.

I also found about Tractor Vaporizing Oil (TVO) which was the fuel for tractor some decades ago.

My thought was that there is not common conditions where gasoline-air mixture and diesel-air mixture can ignite in useful way inside an IC piston engine. I was wrong.

Thank you all for your contribution!

Regards

Costas Varsamidis

 

[bobqzzi04]

I had a Honda generator that I used to bring to the race track. I wasrunning it one day when when it occured to me I had best pour in some fuel so the lights didn't go out. I did so and it ran for another hour or so until I shut it down for the night. The next morning I tried to start it, but it would just not fire (most unusual for a Honda.) After messing about for a while I discovered I had poured in diesel fuel. It ran perfectly, but simply wouldn't start when cold.

 

[icrman]

The thing about running diesel in something like that generator, is since diesel is very low octane, it would tend to knock much easier than on gasoline. I know of a small gas engine manufacture that recommended that an extra head gasket be installed when the engine was to be run on kerosene. Diesel is a bit harder to get to atomize in a carburetor.

 

[WoodrowJWeen]

At least one engine-generator manufacturer, Generac, now has a bi-fuel piston engine that starts on diesel and then runs on a mixture of diesel and natural gas.

 

[bmcaz]

Hello
My Dad had a B model John Deer tractor from the 40's that had an Aux. fuel tank to allow you to run kero or diesel or corn ???
You would start and warm up on gas and then switch.

The B was a 2 cyl. about 7 by 9 bore and stroke for about 500 ci. max rpm was under 2000 if I remember correctly.

Brian

 

[chickinplucker]

i had a tractor that ran on gas and kerosene you started on gas then switched to kerosene the reason it worked was because the inlet manufold was connected to the exhaust and got hot thus vaperising the kerosene on contact with the hot metal i had to switch over to gas before i stopped it tho it also had a slightly lower compression than a normal gas engine hope this info is helpful

 

[harrisj]

Rob Ward's right about the Chieftain tank. The engine was a Leyland L60, rated at 750 hp, and a few are still in service. The smaller version, the K60 is fitted to the FV430 armoured vehicle, and there are still lots of these in British Army service. Both are vertically-opposed 6-cylinder inline engines (very tall!) with 2 crankshafts and a Roots type scavenge blower.

The engines were not particularly powerful, clean or reliable. But they would run on kerosene, diesel or petrol (and possibly vegetable oils), without any adjustment or modification. This was perceived as a logistic advantage in the 1960s/70s so that an advancing army could scavenge anything flammable and continue to press forward.

In the event, I don't believe that any Chieftain ran operationally on anything other than Diesel. It was difficult enough keeping them going on that.

Interestingly, all NATO countries specify the 'single fuel policy' for Army equipment. This means that all military vehicles should have diesel engines that run on diesel fuel or aviation kerosene. Petrol is firmly out of favour (except for outboards and motorcycles, but even these are becoming available with diesel engines).