Is there an upper limit to the amount of toe nails you can use? 2

[DTS419]

Is there an upper limit to the amount of toe nails you can use from joist to sill plate, or a minimum spacing? Could you use (3) 16d toe nails on each side of the joist if the sill plate was 2x8 or bigger?

 

[BridgeSmith]

I think you'd run the risk of splitting the bottom of the joist. If you need that many, it's probably time to consider an alternate method of attachment, such as an steel angle.

 

[SwinnyGG]

Or you could, you know, use a joist hanger.

 

[IceNine]

Have you ever tried to toe nail a 16d nail?
I don't recommend it.

 

[phamENG]

Well, a joist hanger isn't going to do much for you attaching a stud to a sill plate.

I would take a look at the residential code requirements for this connection, and don't exceed it. If it doesn't provide sufficient toe nails, then go up to a framing angle or something else.

 

[dik]

It's loaded in compression? Can you just nail through the top plate into the end grain of the stud, like they normally do, If you need an actual Connection, Simpson likely has a CFS that works.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[hokie66]

Joist to sill plate, according to the OP, or can't you guys read?

IceNine is correct, it is a bad idea.

 

[SwinnyGG]

Well, a joist hanger isn't going to do much for you attaching a stud to a sill plate.

Joist to sill plate, according to the OP, or can't you guys read?

Am I the only one who has ever seen a top mount joist hanger used to tie joists to sill plates?

 

[JStephen]

Am I the only one that read the title and thought "Well, ten is about right."

 

[Luceid]

Stephen

 

[DTS419]

Joist to sill plate, according to the OP, or can't you guys read?

lol. Yes, joist to sill plate. The loading is horizontal shear as in the joist bracing the foundation wall. Long story short but in this particular case the contractor did not follow the design specs and wants to know he can use more than 3 toe nails to get the desired capacity.

On paper it's a matter of dividing the load by the value per nail per NDS. But there must be some limit where adding nails in a toe-nail situation stops providing strength or even becomes detrimental.

 

[phamENG]

can't you guys read?

Apparently not. Oops. The evidence that I need glasses keeps stacking up against me...

My opinion hasn't changed, though. If you need more than code minimum, best to switch to an alternate connection. I've found the extra nail(s) usually get missed since the guy with the nail gun probably doesn't know there are drawings anyway.

A framing angle or something else is easier to spot in an inspection.

 

[phamENG]

Also, nail spacing is in the NDS connection chapter. On my phone so I don't have it handy.

 

[FacEngrPE]

Yes, joist to sill plate. The loading is horizontal shear as in the joist bracing the foundation wall. Long story short but in this particular case the contractor did not follow the design specs and wants to know he can use more than 3 toe nails to get the desired capacity

.
If this is a 2x4 3 toe nails is about the limit before there is a risk of splitting the end.

 

[hokie66]

He did say "if the sill plate was 2x8 or bigger".

 

[gte447f]

You can always do a mockup test in the field and see how it goes until you start splitting the joists. If this thing is already built and there is floor sheathing in place on top of the joists, then it is going to be awfully difficult to drive additional toe-nails.

You say the contractor did not follow the design specs... so, what was the connection supposed to be instead of a bunch of toe-nails?

 

[SE2607]

Per 2019 CBC Table 2304.10.1:

If you need more capacity, I recommend a clip (Simpson A34).

 

[gte447f]

SE2607, the OP's situation is for a floor joist to sill plate connection.

The relevant entry from the 2018 IBC Table 2304.10.1 is item "21. Joist to sill, top plate, or girder"

3-8d common toenail
3-10d box toenail
3-3"x0.131" toenail

 

[DTS419]

Right, I'm familiar with the IRC nailing schedule, but the question is how many toe nails is too many?

 

[gte447f]

DTS419, There is no code mandated maximum number of toenails in a connection that I am aware of. As has been stated by others above, the main limitation is probably going to be splitting of the "side" member. Consider a field mockup to see what's possible before you make a mess of the connection. Keep in mind that toenails in general are messy and difficult to install correctly/well, especially 16d because they are pretty big.