Is there an upper limit to the amount of toe nails you can use? 2

[DTS419]

Is there an upper limit to the amount of toe nails you can use from joist to sill plate, or a minimum spacing? Could you use (3) 16d toe nails on each side of the joist if the sill plate was 2x8 or bigger?

 

[SE2607]

gteff7f: Thanks for the correction.

 

[SE2607]

My question to the OP is this:
What load are you trying to resist? Shear load parallel to the joists? That's carried by the diaphragm to the boundary members. Shear load perpendicular to the joists? That's carried through the blocking or rim joist. Uplift? TNs are terrible for uplift no matter how many you use.

 

[kissymoose]

From my experience doing wood framed construction in college, every other toenail would split the member or come out at a wonky angle. It's easy to mess it up, and then you don't have any meat left to get a proper one in. But toenails are so ingrained in the standard practice of wood framed construction. I'm just wary of using them in any important connection, resisting a permanent dead load, where there's not a lot of redundancy, or you're hugging the unity check line too close. I've seen plenty of basement walls that have popped those toenails and pushed inward.

Also, nail spacing is in the NDS connection chapter. On my phone so I don't have it handy.

I'm afraid this is all we get for nails (2018 NDS). Fasteners with Ø bigger than 1/4" get all sorts of provisions.

 

[CANPRO]

Have you ever tried to toe nail a 16d nail?
I don't recommend it.

No disrespect intended, but this is not overly difficult to do with some practice. For reference, I accumulated a couple thousand hours of site time as a residential framer when I was younger. Toenailing can be a bit awkward I suppose starting out but can certainly be done properly.

Although it can be done properly, I agree with kissymoose:

I'm just wary of using them in any important connection, resisting a permanent dead load, where there's not a lot of redundancy, or you're hugging the unity check line too close.

There is a tendency to split when toenailing, with roof trusses especially (in my experience). Based on my experience, on a 2x6 wall I wouldn't put in any more than (3) toenails - 1 on one side and 2 on the other. A decent carpenter should be able to do this easily without splitting the bottom of the joist. For a 2x8 wall I would go (4) total.

If you're wondering about this, it would be worth getting some scrap wood and trying it yourself. Driving a good quality toenail comes down to getting the right edge distance and angle. Holding the joist in place while toenailing can be tough sometimes; you need a good clean first-strike on the nail to avoid moving the joist too much. If you find the wood is prone to splitting, blunt the end of the nail with your hammer before driving it.

 

[hokie66]

Don't forget that the adjacent joist is in the way on one side. But some here are talking about gun nails for 16d. Never seen that.

 

[DTS419]

Very good thread, thanks for all the replies. This has helped affirm what my gut was telling me, and that is that more than 4 (two on each side) is probably too many.