Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart? 5

[laminarpath]

If one had the ability to quickly memorize NFPA codes/standards perfectly by heart and completely understand it all also, is there any high paying jobs for such a person that would utilize multiple skills, or is it best to specialize in one or two areas (such as sprinkler design, fire hazards) even if you had a superhuman memory?

Thanks!

(yes I know that other careers would be wiser for such a person)

 

[cdafd]

If you could do it yes you would be valuable

The job. Fire protection engineer!!!!!

 

[stookeyfpe]

With a name like laminarpath your want Bouernelli to behave for your lifestyle. Good luck when Re > 2300.

When Re is > 2300 + 1 tell me your life adventure.

 

[laminarpath]

@stookeyfpe

what? blood flow through capillaries is laminar, so xD

 

[skdesigner]

"(yes I know that other careers would be wiser for such a person)"

Yeah, move to Vegas and count cards at the blackjack table.

I have found that the difficulty lies more in the interpretation and application of the codes than simply remembering what they say. The index tells you where the specific section is, so let the book keep track of it.

On the flip side, you'd probably ace NFSA's Top Tech Challenge every other year.

 

[TravisMack]

When I started in the industry, my boss required me to read NFPA 13 front to back several times and basically memorize everything in it. He said he wanted me to be able to always have a good idea of what was in the book, but also where to find it when I needed it.

That being said, when a new edition comes out, I usually read it 2-3 times front to back just to pick up on what is new and what changed. However, as SKD said, correct application of the standard is more important than head knowledge of the standard. If you know that you must use a minimum 11.2k orifice in storage with densities of 0.34 or greater and actually apply it, then you are better off. I use that as an example because a set of plans came to me today with a requirement for K8 sprinklers and 0.35 density. This is a case where the designer did not know, nor apply the entirety of NFPA 13.

As you start your education and career, I would recommend that you do hand calculations for your first few projects. Don't do it for a gridded system, but if you have a tree system, I highly recommend hand calcs to complete the project. That is one thing that my first boss made me do and I am very grateful. I was not happy at the time, but it gave me a much greater understanding of the hydraulic calculation process, instead of just pick a pipe size and hit a calculate button.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[laminarpath]

If you know that you must use a minimum 11.2k orifice in storage with densities of 0.34 or greater and actually apply it, then you are better off. I use that as an example because a set of plans came to me today with a requirement for K8 sprinklers and 0.35 density. This is a case where the designer did not know, nor apply the entirety of NFPA 13.

Is this not in the manuals/handbooks to memorize?
If not how do you come to understand such a requirement.

 

[laminarpath]

I have found that the difficulty lies more in the interpretation and application of the codes than simply remembering what they say. The index tells you where the specific section is, so let the book keep track of it.

Could you give me an example of difficulty interpreting the code? I've looked at it and my problem is I don't understand the terminology yet, but I assumed that once I understood the concepts and lingo that reading the manual would be clear cut..

And I'm guessing that most of the difficulty of applying the code would be figuring out the most optimal design that accounts for cost (including projected labor cost), is up to code, and fits.. right? Is there anything else?

The type of memory I'm talking about here is one like you would have if you were asked a question or presented with a problem and you had memorized relevant information or the answer itself sometime previously. For example, we all have a great amount of learned skills that are not at the forefront of our attention all at once, but once called upon, the memory is instant. For example when you come to a red light and wish to make a right turn - a set of instructions runs through your brain from memory, such as:

Stop at the thick white line>
look both ways for obstructions such as cars coming or people crossing the street>
make sure there isn't a 'No right turn on red' sign>

if all above is true, decide to turn right on red unless:
an emergency vehicle with lights is coming from either direction>
view is obstructed and cannot safely foresee incoming traffic>

if above conditions are met, wait for green light..

most of these instructions never cross our mind until we need to use them, especially the rare situational cases, but it's like a chain reaction to a trigger. the trigger is the need to turn right on red, which generates past memorized behavior or instructions pertaining to turning right on red.

text memorization works exactly the same way once you convert all concepts/constructs/words/definitions in a text to vivid mental images that convey specific meanings to you, then learn to repeat the identical vivid image later to reproduce the chain reaction (this is perfected by doing it all the time).

human memory naturally does this in the 3d physical world, just as it happens in a human when navigating traffic, and so conceptual information is just a matter of visualizing it vividly enough and similarly enough to trigger the brain to reproduce a pattern it has already generated before during the first visual effort (memorization).

most people use a combination of their senses which is not as effective as visual in almost all areas. most people use sub-vocalization, for example repeating a phrase or string of numbers over and over until it becomes a song-pattern, which the first sound of the 'song' or annoying melody triggers the rest of it. still, this usually also incorporates the mental visualization of at least part of the memorized password, phone number, or phrase.

In ancient times storytellers could recite extremely long stories, because they played like movies in their heads, with strong visual thoughts, and not reciting things like a robot with no understanding of what they were memorizing.

That is why it's easy to memorize something like this:
The fox was on fire, and jumped into the pool.
(And repeat this an hour later from memory)
Than this (an hour later):
101 341 145 11 7010, 011 00122 9322 843236

One string creates a movie in your head, one doesn't.
If you think about a fox an hour later, then you will probably remember he jumped into the pool, if you visualized the fox the same way as you did the first time.

If you visualize or sound out '101', the first number in the memory sequence, the rest of it doesn't come to you because you don't have a good mental construct for the number '101' like you do for fox.

So what all this means is that the memorization I'm talking about isn't memorizing the words or definitions of things like a robot taperecorder, but memorizing the concepts that the words/definitions represent. So that if you were presented with designing a fire suppression system for a storage room, every bit of memorized information related to your saved mental image of a 'storage room' would come flooding to your mind - not rehearsed verses.

 

[cdafd]

As said and said good application of nfpa is more important

This comes from experience and attending alot of classes

You could memorize how to fly a plane, but until you get it off the ground you ain't a pilot

 

[skdesigner]

Given the length and detail of your post, maybe you should be a writer, not a sprinkler man.

Notice I said "I have found...", meaning it's my experience. Probably not the case for someone as astute and mentally gifted as yourself, or anyone else for that matter.

I'm 23 years old, and only graduated 2 1/2 years ago. Seems like for every time I learn something new, it means I've been doing five other things wrong.

Knowing the code, and being able to regurgitate it at will is definitely going to help you. But....

Only when you stay up all night putting the final touches on a project, to have the office jockey-hating journeyman fitter call you up three weeks later and kindly inform you that your material order was missing skyhooks, because you, the code memorizing college graduate, drew 30 lines across an area that doesn't even have a ceiling, will I say welcome to the world of Sprinkler Contracting.

 

[laminarpath]

I can't memorize like that, I just know someone who can (that's how he explained it to me and even though I'm not like him, I could make myself spend a lot of time trying to emulate him because I have a long time before I'll be doing this for a job)

I believe what you all are saying but I don't understand what you mean by a good application of nfpa. Is there anything I could do to learn to apply nfpa better without waiting for school to be over, waiting to pass certification, waiting to be hired, waiting to get stuck on the job at 2am on my own time with no help and it's too late to correct my years of wasted waiting instead of learning how to apply or interpret the code.

 

[MGXFP]

Get some experience. Really there is no replacement.

If you were familiar with ALL the standards you should work for a consulting firm as a fire protection engineer if you have an engineering diploma. Getting licensed would be the next step.

As a sprinkler designer I've only got about 5 volumes memorized to a good working knowledge but I still go back to them regularly to verify I'm giving good directions to people.

 

[TravisMack]

That requirement about K factor is in the standard. Does that mean it gets applied properly every time? NO! I have seen several times where some one tried to use the room design in an Ordinary Hazard area, but did not have the proper ratings on the walls. Again, information is in the standard, but not being properly applied.

I am sure that all of us on here could come up with several examples of where things were not properly applied.

The ability to learn to apply this is from time and experience. I also coach kickboxing and grappling. I can teach you all of the technique in the world, but if you haven't spent time on the mat, you are not going to know how to use it in competition. Learning proper application of anything is much more than head knowledge. It is from experience of doing something and finding out if it works great in the real environment instead of theoretical environments.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[cdafd]

how old are you???

find a sprinkler company that will let you tag along for no pay, both in the field and with the designers


what they are say is there is more than one way to do something, and sometimes you have to take other routes to get somewhere. If you do not know those other routes, which sometimes you only get from experience, than you maybe wasting time and money, which can cost a company or cost them a job.

 

[pipesnpumps]

It is a big part of being an FPE but the real skill is applying that knowledge in a practical way, supporting a design team and defending your design to owners and AHJs. That implementation requires considerable written and verbal communication skills, alot of tact, and a slice of humble pie. It is not for everyone!

I am an AHJ but I would really prefer doing design, so that maybe a few days a month have conflict. I deal with pissed off uneducated "know it alls" daily and the only thing worse than their ignorance is their attitudes. Don't recommend this route, stay in design.

Real world knowledge doesn't fall out of the sky on a parachute, but rather is gained in small increments during moments of panic or curiosity.

 

[NJ1]

OMG

This forum is getting better and better.
Who the hell cares if you remember codes by heart or not. It sound good but it only pays if you work for yourself. No company cares about that unless if it is a fire protection company that plays lots of Jeopardy.

Good Luck Filling the blanks

 

[laminarpath]

The topic was created because I figured there must be someone somewhere who has to check to make sure the sprinkler designers are doing their job right, the architect is doing his job right, the electricians are doing their job right, etc. I figured either this is a network of people working together all specialized to check one of these areas or a single person checking them all. if it was a single person, he would have to have a lot of experience and hand in hand a lot of memory about a bunch of different codes, standards, concepts of all these different fields. I thought this might be more lucrative than designing sprinklers so I was asking if such a job was out there, that could be branched off to after being a sprinkler designer for a while (so a higher paying position than NICET IV sprinkler guy would have).

Then someone said that mere memory of the regulations and guidelines about the fire protection field isn't the problem but the practical application of it is. I still don't know of any examples of the elusive practical application aspect of this profession that you couldn't derive from the guidelines that NFPA, NFSA, and various writers who have years of background in this field have written books on - but I'm sure such examples exist.

My assumption was that being able to remember and understand the codes better would result in making less initial mistakes (saving time, preventing costly modifications later), less searching in the manuals or asking questions to others (saving time). Since time is money and preventing costly modifications or total disasters saves a lot of money I saw this as a no brainer that it would be valuable to employers if you knew your stuff.

I also don't see a better way to defend a position to owners/AHJs than showing them the reasoning behind your decision referenced with the code. You could put is as nicely as possible and give them pie, beer, and dinner but in the end you're going to have to either prove to them that the way you are proposing is the best, or that theirs violates some rule or code and you can't do it their way without them authorizing it in writing to cover your hide saying you warned them.. (this was how it was explained to me).

 

[laminarpath]

That requirement about K factor is in the standard. Does that mean it gets applied properly every time? NO! I have seen several times where some one tried to use the room design in an Ordinary Hazard area, but did not have the proper ratings on the walls. Again, information is in the standard, but not being properly applied.

I am sure that all of us on here could come up with several examples of where things were not properly applied.

The ability to learn to apply this is from time and experience.

Thank you for this example, but why would someone who has memorized that particular requirement fail to apply it every time? Wouldn't doing so be a failure of remembering to do it (memory) rather than failure of application?

 

[Arsnman4]

still don't know of any examples of the elusive practical application aspect of this profession that you couldn't derive from the guidelines that NFPA, NFSA, and various writers who have years of background in this field have written books on - but I'm sure such examples exist.

Try dealing with field modifications due to unexpected issues created by conditions not known or provided to the design professional. Try dealing with stuff that the code/standard does not address (beyond the scope. There is more to just knowing the digits. Know where to find it, how to interpret it, apply it and evaluate it. Have your friend get good E & O and go out and make himself/herself millions.



"Fire suppression is a failure in prevention"

 

[laminarpath]

out of curiosity what is E & O?

if there are unexpected field modifications then it would simply require a partial/full redesign right? how does that seperate rookies from experienced layouters?

what is an example of something beyond the scope of the code/standard