Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart? 5

[laminarpath]

If one had the ability to quickly memorize NFPA codes/standards perfectly by heart and completely understand it all also, is there any high paying jobs for such a person that would utilize multiple skills, or is it best to specialize in one or two areas (such as sprinkler design, fire hazards) even if you had a superhuman memory?

Thanks!

(yes I know that other careers would be wiser for such a person)

 

[laminarpath]

Know where to find it, how to interpret it, apply it and evaluate it.

Isn't this all due to memory?
For example where to find it: Memorizing page numbers or the index along with the complete information
How to interpret it: memorizing the lingo and definitions specific in the codes/manuals
Apply it: recalling from memory the various rules/regulations during designing, and the design examples of others in books such as the the ones in various fire sprinkler help books on nfpa and nfsa sites
evaluate: recalling from memory if things are in order or out of order when looking at a drawing, etc

 

[DavidCR]

I´ve taken several NFPA code courses and in all of them I have learned that the code does not include the real "know how".

For example, read NFPA70 and you will see that if you are not a real electrical engineer it is useless to memorize it. On the other hand, if you are a good electrical engineer you can understand well what the code tries to rule, and memorizing it would be nice ability.

Of course there are some NFPA standards that include more information, recommendation,drawings, in addition to the rules, that would make you fell that you have the grab of the know how, but be careful, you can find yourself on embarrassing situation if you pretend to be a real expert only based on the code.

I think about your question a little as if somebody was asking if memorizing the Bible would make help you to be a good christian. It all depends...

 

[cdafd]

So how old are you????????


The best I have been around open the book to check thier own work

There are to many variables, exceptions to try it without the book

You have to start at the bottom and learn

 

[cdafd]

If you think this job is easy just read most of the posts on this site

 

[laminarpath]

I´ve taken several NFPA code courses and in all of them I have learned that the code does not include the real "know how".

Still curious as to an example of 'know-how' that you can't get out of books on the subject

 

[TravisMack]

You are not going to learn how to coordinate pipe routing and sprinkler layout in a busy mechanical room in the sub-fab area of a clean room through a text book. It takes doing it multiple times to learn the best routes to take in order to provide the most effective layout while maintaining all of the requirements of the standards and codes. That is your real world example. Sure, I can say that heads need to be in X,Y,Z locations to get proper coverage. Now, through in 3 layers of ductwork, some FRP duct that requires sprinklers inside of the duct, the typical sprinkler contract where everyone is installed when the sprinkler guy is awarded the contract and you can see where real world experience will come in to play. I can know exactly where the sprinklers need to be to get proper coverage, but how do I get water from the underground supply to each of those sprinklers? There is not a text in the world, that I am aware of, that will tell you HOW to do that.

I am happy that you are going down this career path. A career in fire sprinkler systems has been good to me and my family. I often encourage others to consider this career. However, it is not just a cookie-cutter job of applying standard a.b.c.d.e.f to each project. While you are in school, all of your work is going to be theoretical and you don't have bosses breathing down your back because you used 8 extra elbows to get some where when a different route was available. Or, you don't have a fitter calling you saying that you hit the beam and duct and he is not even out of the riser room yet. That is real world experience that teaches you these things. No amount of code memorizing will get you there. I have a pretty amazing memory and if I can't recall the exact wording of a particular topic, because I have read the standards numerous times, I can usually tell you what part of the page the diagram or table I am looking for is located at. However, that kind of knowledge just lets me answer questions faster in a meeting. It does not help me get water from the underground to the sprinklers any faster.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[DavidCR]

For example.

On a NFPA 13 sprinkler connections to water supplies. What valve arrangement to use or what accessories shall be included?

It depends a lot on the specific case. The code includes a drawing with examples but not a rule. The manufacturers propose several technologies to suit the code rules, the designers have many options, in some local codes there are other requirements, etc.

 

[cdafd]

Still curious how old you are

 

[laminarpath]

Now, through in 3 layers of ductwork, some FRP duct that requires sprinklers inside of the duct, the typical sprinkler contract where everyone is installed when the sprinkler guy is awarded the contract and you can see where real world experience will come in to play. I can know exactly where the sprinklers need to be to get proper coverage, but how do I get water from the underground supply to each of those sprinklers? There is not a text in the world, that I am aware of, that will tell you HOW to do that.

Isn't this a trial and error process, regardless of experience?

On a NFPA 13 sprinkler connections to water supplies. What valve arrangement to use or what accessories shall be included?

It depends a lot on the specific case. The code includes a drawing with examples but not a rule. The manufacturers propose several technologies to suit the code rules, the designers have many options, in some local codes there are other requirements, etc.

Assuming you accounted for the rules and other requirements, how would you know that option A is better than option B,C,D,E,F

There must be some place you go to find out, if not, how would you gain experience since you would never know you made a mistake..

 

[TravisMack]

You gain experience by talking to the fitters that are putting it in and getting their input. We are only drawing a line on a paper that is connecting circles. These guys are actually putting it in. You may be able to fit a 6" pipe in a certain location, but if they can't hang it due to obstructions above the ceiling, or if they can't get a wrench in to tighten the nuts on the coupling, it really didn't work.

This is a great career, but it is not a cookie-cutter, follow the standard and you are golden. You often have to get very creative about how to get things arranged in tight spaces. Experience and getting in there and talking to the guys that wrench this stuff in will be very valuable to helping you get along in your career.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[pipesnpumps]

Are you Vulcan? Your logical nature is unrelenting logical.
You would make a great engineer if you can learn soft skills to.

I could write a computer program that could recall a terabyte of data on fire protection but it probably won't do as good of a design as Travis could. Compare it to cooking. What you are saying is if you read all 1,200 pages of Julia Child's book you could be a head chef at a French Resaurant. (see how I appealed to your logic there?)



Real world knowledge doesn't fall out of the sky on a parachute, but rather is gained in small increments during moments of panic or curiosity.

 

[stookeyfpe]

We’ve had discussions about this before but this one has a different twist in that if you understand one or several series of standards, you’re ahead of the curve. To a point, I guess that would be true. My only concern is that when the design is being prepared, everyone needs to understand their limitations as designers, reviewers or specifiers.

For example, under the 2010 edition of NFPA 72, the standard now prescribes performance based designs to determine if a space is acoustically distinguishable when an emergency voice/alarm communication system is required. I’m already having people ask me what is the best software for performing acoustical analysis. Rather than purchasing software the logic path should be to understand the science of acoustics and how building geometry and finishes affect signal intelligibility, purchase and read relevant texts, and to talk to more informed folks in the arena of interest.

Another area is hazardous materials. When I talk to designers and enforcers, I continue to be reminded that many people really don’t consider all the variables, and this includes engineers who are sealing specifications. I probably get 2-3 telephone calls/week asking me if they missed anything. In 9 out 10 cases they generally get it, but then I throw a variable out that makes them go back and ask more questions. Currently I am dealing with a project where the owner/staff are manipulating an exception in NFPA 30 so they can justify protecting an unlimited area building used for packaging and storing water miscible alcohol/water solutions in plastic bottles with ESFR sprinklers. I am highly skeptical, I haven’t seen the supposed fire test data, and so far I am not waffling on allowing any construction permits to be issued.

I appreciate the question and the answers that have been given. My only nugget of wisdom is make sure you really understand the hazard your protecting but as important, how changes to that hazard may negate or completely invalidate a prescriptive design. The owner must be educated that in many cases with high-challenge commodities, the design is dependent on the selected packaging and the chemical formulation of the stored goods. Change one of those variables and you can have problems.

 

[laminarpath]

You often have to get very creative about how to get things arranged in tight spaces.

So you are saying it's impossible for a rookie to either draw in 3D or note the dimensions of obstructions and make sure there is enough room for fitters to install? It seems like it would be fairly obvious that you would go for the most wide open spaces possible - do the best you can, and if it still looks like there isn't enough space then create space by decreasing pipe size or whatever. If you had memorized the standards and guide books you would know on hand what things you could do to change the variables and create more space. I'm not arguing with you to defend a point but rather to get you to elaborate.

I could write a computer program that could recall a terabyte of data on fire protection but it probably won't do as good of a design as Travis could.

If you accounted for all the variables I don't see why it wouldn't do a much better job (especially in terms of speed) than any sprinkler designer. For example, in the video game 'tron', you have a bike that has a tail - like a snake - that slithers around in a square and tries to box another bike-snake in -since crashing into a wall results in death-. There are computer algorithms that people have developed to search for the most wide open spaces, or calculate spaces between walls and plot a path, to survive. In the future most jobs will be automated, even jobs thought to require human creativity. This is because in actuality humans are still limited by their environment just like computers, we simply calculate for many times more variables.

Most of our advantages only come in handy for exceptionally fast continual learning of new variables. Computer programs don't have to adapt so quickly.

For example, to solve the tight spaces problem, you would write some code that calculated minimum distance acceptable from obstructions for it to consider drawing pipe there into your entire pipe calculation subroutine. You could also continually update the prices for various pipe types, their sizes, sprinkler types, their coverage area, etc. If you did it right, it would be able to 'trial and error' calculate various sprinkler systems in a building, then you would program a simulator that would test the effectiveness of the system. Leaving the program running for a while would no doubt arrive at the most optimal system possible for the variables you gave it in a quicker time than a human could, and even if not, it would definitely be for lower cost (just for the cost of the electricity to run the computer).

My point is that if a computer in the future can account for all the variables, there must be somewhere that humans can learn OF all the common variables (except super rare cases), since the primary goal of people publishing books on the subject would be to teach rookies these variables. What else would the writers of such guidebooks be doing? How hard would it be to put in a line of text that says "Find the most wide open space possible for pipe in tight spaces so your fitters don't have trouble."

The example given does seem like it might be left out of textbooks, it doesn't seem like it can't be incorporated into them with ease, it's not an idea that can't be expressed in writing, such as the 'proper feeling of weight to put on the brake of a car to slow it to a stop without causing unnecessary wear on the brake, screeching, or dangerous sliding such as on a slippery surface'. THAT is an example of something you can't teach in a book.

 

[laminarpath]

I'd just like to clarify something since most people hate the idea of being compared to a computer. But if you imagined yourself without any senses - no vision, none whatsoever, no hearing, no smell, no taste, and no touch (no feeling of heat/cold either), even if your body was functioning normally otherwise you would be a vegetable, just like a computer, because you're at the mercy of outside environmental variables (things you see, taste, touch, smell, hear) to give you things to analyze and instructions to do.

So if you had a human in this complete vegetable state, then you sent electricity into the area of his brain that eyeballs normally send electrical signals to in order to compute images, that person would then see colors, shapes, or whatever the electrical pattern was identified to be by his brain. This process now makes him an organic computer completely at the will of his outside human tamperers - just like how a modern computer acts. Give a computer sophisticated sensors and an organic component like we have in order to adapt to its surrounding and it becomes a life-form.

 

[TravisMack]

So you are saying it's impossible for a rookie to either draw in 3D or note the dimensions of obstructions and make sure there is enough room for fitters to install? It seems like it would be fairly obvious that you would go for the most wide open spaces possible - do the best you can, and if it still looks like there isn't enough space then create space by decreasing pipe size or whatever.

Please make a note of this thread. Then, call me or come back here and post your first experience when you are working for a contractor developing plans for an industrial site where fire sprinkler piping is given the lowest priority for coordination. I think you will see the error of your thinking at that time. Then, wait until the fitter cusses you up and down for have hit the duct work, even though the HVAC guy did not install it where he said he would. I imagine it must be fun to be only in the theoretical / academic world of dealing with system layout.

Anyway, I truly wish you the best of luck in your educational and professional career. There will come a time when you know what you don't know. It has happened to all of us, and likely happens to us daily.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[laminarpath]

I think you will see the error of your thinking at that time.

What does it matter, according to you even if I accepted that there is no way to prepare myself for this situation, the end result is still the same...

If the HVAC guy installs something where he said he wouldn't, and you hit his stuff, then no matter how experienced you are you hit their stuff, so what is the thinking? I'm not trying to say that you can supernaturally account for future, impossible to dodge scenarios like you just gave me. I'm just saying that you haven't shown me that experienced sprinkler designers can either... No matter what you 'know', how can you know the thoughts in the HVAC guys head? I didn't know telepathy was part of the skills gained from years of sprinkler design..

 

[Arsnman4]

Hal................welcome to the "real world" of design and or specification in fire protection systems. In the field one encounters many applications or needs to anticipate what the code/standard intends and what is given on or during a final acceptance in the field of fire protection.


"Fire suppression is a failure in prevention"

 

[DavidCR]

ASME, AISC, AWWA, API, NFPA codes are all similar in this.

When I was a rookie, I thought that when I got the copy of the code in my hands, I got the Sword of Grayskull to design, but after some years I found out that a code is just a book of helpful standard rules.

Remember that NFPA is the result of a consensus among all the different interests involved in the committees (fire fighters, AHJs, inspectors, consumers, users, building owners, manufacturers, insurers, contractors, designers, etc.). So many times the code is maybe not thinking of you as a designer, and will not help that much.

 

[cdafd]

Still curious how old you are !!!!!!!!!!


And than you throw in ahj, amendments, owners, corporate policy, consultants

And what do you get


a camel is a horse designed by a committee

 

[MGXFP]

I think the point, as sprinkler designers, is to design systems in such a way to promote flexibility during installation. i.e. don't cut yourself close to the bone with safety factors like not spacing your sprinkler at maximum and use appropriate strategies to allow the system to be installed a number of ways like keeping all outlets on the same side of a welded line which allows a straight drop down, an armover, or a gooseneck in case the HVAC guy installs his duct in the wrong place and hoses you. This is just one example.

Every shop is different in what materials they order, how they install and a myriad of other factors from management to nuts and bolts. As a designer these need to be taken into consideration. What we do has a direct impact on the bottom line.

I can't write a book on all of this because I'm too busy but I can look at your plans and say maybe we should re-think this area and get a fitter in here for his input.When is it best to use all threaded pipe and when does it really pay off to go with welded lines? This is what is meant by no replacement for experience.