Is this a safe place to discuss 'sensitive' matters?

[Skogsgurra]

I need to get your opinion on a situation that I have walked into. It is about a new measurement instrument that has been advertised in a big way but doesn't meet expectations. The software is full of bugs that obviously come from 'cut and paste' when modifying the code to acommodate twice the number of channels. Also, the USB storage does not work with anything but BMP while one expects - and needs - data storage. There are also issues with PC communication and representation on the PC screen. Some data are inverted and som are not. It's chaos.

To me, it looks like this company has fired all software engineers and hired external consultants to 'fix' the migration to more channels. It also seems that there is no software manager to QA the work.

I have told this company that they need to do it all over again. From scratch. They invited me to visit them (on my expense!) and have lunch with them to talk "my" issues over. Hmm, I think it's their problem - not mine. And, I usually get paid for work like this. So I said "Thanks, but this is a bigger issue than that" and refrained from that meeting.

This week, I got mail from them again. Now, they are sending their Marketing Manager and Product Manager to Sweden for a couple of days and want to see me.

In the meantime, I have found many more quirks, bugs and downright stupid things. Also found that the HOLD function (that I used to freeze a waveform that I wanted to transfer to the PC) is reset when I connect to the PC. That rare waveform was lost before I could save it. Should have photografed the screen. But, who could believe that the USB should erase it. Not me. You?

I have discussed this with a few friends and they didn't believe me at first. I let them do what I did and they were very very upset. In view of all ridiculously exaggerated video ads on this device that you can find on the internet, it is amazing what crap you get for your 7000 dollars.

I really want these guys to do it all over again. The hardware is OK, in a way. They have overemphasized things like CAT IV/600 V but that is not an error, just somewhat ridiculous. They also tell the customers to 'connect and view' to check PWM on motors. That is also crap. Especially as the probes they use are specified for 50 V rms at 25 kHz and around 80 V at 10 kHz. An inverter with 10 kHz carrier frequency and 460 V rms motor voltage has a PWM rms voltage around 650 V. Also, the connect and view doesn't work. They can't even make it work in the vieos.

They have no idea of what they are doing, I think. Not much more than marketing people and bean counters left in the company. The situation is quite difficult. What would you do in a situation like this?

And, is this forum enough 'sealed' so we can discuss this thing without leaks that could cause damage?





Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[SomptingGuy]

For $7k I would expect a test drive before committing.

- Steve

LinkedIn

 

[fattdad]

I googled, "waveform transfer to pc" and got a company name. If that's the company you are concerned about then I'd think you should avoid posting in this pubic forum. The content of this forum is also seen by google.

f-d

¡papá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!

 

[fattdad]

Oh, I forgot this was the pub. Maybe google doesn't see the pub.

f-d

¡papá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!

 

[Skogsgurra]

That's why I chose this site in the first place.

And, it is NOT Yokogawa. I have several of their equipment also. Solid, well performing, always meeting my expectations.

No, it is another company we are discussing here. A company that also performed well for 30 - 40 years but seems to have deteriorated completely the last years and the 190-xxx represents the all-time low in software performance. Read the thread from the beginning to get the picture.

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[LionelHutz]

I agree with what Keith posted. Create a list of all the issues as much as you can, both functional and marketing. Set-up and have the scope and PC readily available to demonstrate if necessary and then meet and see what happens. Best case is that everyone gets a much improved Scopemeter that actually works. Worse case is you lose a day because nothing is fixed.

The marketing manager wants to be involved because he is basically in charge of making money from that product. So, if he is smart then he wants to educate himself and learn what features are important to the consumers. For him this should not just mean new gimmicky marketing, it should also mean going back to engineering and telling them to produce the features the customers wants as well as well as making it more user friendly. After all, a pain in the ass to use feature isn't much better than not having the feature at all. You have to remember, products costing that much are often demo'd and customers will be unlikely to purchase if they find issues such as you describe.

I'm sure you'll know fairly quickly if they are serious or not and you can adjust what you present and how much time you spend based on that assessment.

Keep in mind, it's sounds like it's wasting your time in the field, so consider the time you spend helping them now as an investment which will pay back in future.

As a final word. Seriously??? You posted yellow instruments and that the company made a great meter with a 87 part number and that this product changed from 2 channels to the new 4 channel models. You're not hiding anything. The product line is most likely the Fluke Series II Scopemeters.

 

[Skogsgurra]

Yes Lionel. I guess that is fairly obvious. But I haven't said that. Others have.

I am talking continuously with these guys now. The last message I got from them was this (snip):

"BTW the screen content of those videos look very bad. There are made by one of our distributors in the USA. We have asked them to replace the screen shots."

So, I have their attention, in a way. But they still haven't understood the consequences of it all, I think. There's no one to understand left in the company.

Re the probe specifications. It was about maximum voltage between probe GND and "World GND" actually and between the channel GNDs. And I think it is a printing error in the derating curve on page 112 in the manual. The frequency scale is in kHz. I think it should be in MHz. Then it makes more sense. I have asked about that also. No answer yet. I think they are getting tired and wish I wasn't born.

I have a wish. Can someone download those YouTube movies and store them. I think they will soon be gone and I would like to have copies of them - great entertainment!





Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[LionelHutz]

Hmmm, well the Fluke personel going on about how they need to fix the videos and not the product doesn't bode well and is an indicator that you very well may be wasting your time. Maybe it's time to just send it back and buy a scope from a scope manufacturer, such as Tek?

 

[cswilson]

To be fair, an inaccurate marketing video (a) can expose the company to legal liability in a way that a clumsily implemented feature cannot; and (b) can be taken care of immediately by removal. Unfortunately, fixing the bad features is not so easy.

 

[Skogsgurra]

Did anyone download those Youtube videos? I do not know how to do it. Anyone in here? Please. Before they go away.

Especially these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzhI0SapxSM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXhssDSmTS4&NR=1

But there are quite a few other that are 'interesting'

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[Skogsgurra]

End of story

I have had a continuous discussion with Fluke. They are very reluctant, or they do not understand. They regard the memory shortage and the frequent restarts needed to communicate with the PC as small problems that hardly need to be mentioned. The limitation on voltage between probe grounds and between probe grounds and real ground (less than 30 V above 25 kHz) is also not a problem "because the frequency components at that frequency is only a few volts". The truth is that it is up to 460 V RMS. I have asked them to do a measurement to see for themselves what the voltage really is, but they have not been able to do that.

I got an official letter from Kees Kokee, marketing manager, where he tells me that "I sense that you are not happy with our new 190 Series II. We truly feel sorry about that because Fluke products are designed, engineered and produced with great care".

I have put that letter in a folder named SCBS and answered that I am sorry that they have not taken the opportunity to improve the instrument, their understanding and how the company is perceived by the customers.

They have not objected to any of my observations, which I interpret as affirmative and I have told them that I feel free to use any part of our now around two weeks long e-mail exchange freely in the future.

I will stop here. But if anyone feels that more shall be said, I will share the material with no hesitation.

A 'serious' company usually has smallprint at the end of their e-mails that restricts disseminaton of the contents. Not one such line in the communication and no NDA either. I guess that they simply forgot it.

Over and out.

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[ScottyUK]

Shame you are dealing with the marketing guy. A serious company might have put you in touch with someone who could understand what you were saying. Maybe you're right - all that's left are marketing and accountants.

Is that his real name? In his position I'd use a nom de plume.



----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[Skogsgurra]

Scotty, I think that I am talking to the engineers that are left. I am also talking to the top brass in Holland and Everett, WA. I have moved part of this discussion to the open part of EngTips. It is the part about maximum voltage between channels and between channels and ground. That aspect is about safety.

Fluke doesn't understand how serious this is. A large VFD with fuses in the sub kA range is not a problem, according to Fluke. Not even in the kA+ range. Just connect and view. I would not do that. What if the scope cable gets crushed between a door and the cabinet, trodden on or damaged in any other way? That is why we always use current limited and fused probes. But you do not need that.


Fluke says in an e-mail sent to the following persons: Larsson, Bjorn [bjorn.larsson@fluke.com]; gunnar@gke.org; Koppelmans, Henk [henk.koppelmans@fluke.com]; Grashof, Gerard [gerard.grashof@fluke.com]

"I am only looking trying to understand what happens here.
190-II series has insulated inputs so there are no need to use a differential probe.
The fact that you actually used one made me a little bewildered and I wanted to find out if there was something with this probe that gave you something that you could not get with the scope"


The new thread is thread248-302689


My assumption that the derating curve on page 112 in the user's manual was wrong has been answered. It is not wrong. The scale shall be in kHz. Which makes it all the more serious.

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts.

 

[ScottyUK]

I've always preferred to use isolation amplifiers and probes with an HRC fused clip, rather than rely on the expensive instrument to be able to survive a major fault. The HRC fuses should be within the clip or probe. It's bad enough to have a £1000 probe blown up, but better that than a £8000 scope.


----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!