Is this common in engineering? 5

[Calif]

Good evening everyone:

I work for a small firm that does architecture and engineering. Out of the twelve people there, I am the sole staff engineer besides my employer. Everyone else is an architect, including the employer who is an architect and engineer. All I have is a EIT license and have done steel design mostly at this job using software. So far, no one has checked my work. Is this common? I do over design my work and do try the best I can to account for everything. My employer is not around much because he is constantly out going to meetings for jobs. I already designed a building that now has to be redesigned because of things I did not see. Luckly, the owner of the job got another engineer to look at the work and found many flaws in my design which was due to my lack of experience but I feel that the owner would have gotten a better product if someone had looked at it to see if it made sense. My employer who has more experience than I do, barely never looks at my work. He left it up to me and an architect to figure almost everything out. One other thing is that, the first year I worked there, I really worked hard because I knew I did not know much. I knew alot about nothing like I always say. Toward the end of the year, I did not receive a raise. I think it was because some of my projects were not done on time but it was difficult getting alot of work done in short periods of time. Last year I skipped alot of holidays, did alot of overtime without getting paid for the extra time I put in, and came in on Saturdays and Sundays to try to get work done faster. Is this common in building design firms? I feel like I am being handed a large amount responsibility yet I dont know enough and penalize for not knowing. It takes longer time for me to do things when you dont know how to do it and I put in the time to learn but I feel frustrated. I dont want to put extra time anymore because I am not going to get paid for it and if something is handed in late, I am not going to see anything for my efforts. This is a money issue but the only reason why it is is because I want to go back to school to get a master degree in structural engineering and I know currently I dont make enough to go back. Has anyone had experience similar to this when trying as a young engineer?

Kmat

 

[JAE]

I haven't had this experience, but I would suggest that, difficult as it may be, you ought to get another job. As an EIT, one of your primary concerns should be [red]who is training you[/red]...not money. Your whole career depends in a large amount to the quality of your supervising PE.

Now a lot of your experience can be self-taught - but this is risky (as you have begun to find out). You should always look to who will "train" you when selecting a job as an EIT.

When I interview prospective engineers, especially when they are younger EIT's, I have in the past handed them my resume and told them that if they are interviewing other firms to ask for their potential supervisor's resume. A job is a two-way agreement so you have every right to know who's brain you are going to tap for further engineering knowledge.

Also, if you are in structural engineering, I'd strongly urge you to get an MS degree. This discipline is much more "bookish" than others (such as Civil Engineering where they learn a lot more on-the-job via public agencies, regulations, etc that affect their work). So an MS is big...it was for me - made all the difference in the world as far as my understanding of design, stress, concepts, and self-learning.

 

[Calif]

I have been thinking about getting another job for awhile now. At first I thought that maybe I should stay there another year just to prove that I can do the work and he will possibly give me that raise but there is no reason to think that he will pay me more next year. He may not since I have to redesign the building again. Last year I use to be at work at 7 to 7:30 am and leave around 7:00pm every day and then come on week ends to do 8 hours. I figure that this profession is more about what you put into it and I am eager to get what I can out of it, I just want to know if I am doing it right. I seriously want to be a good engineer and I want to go back to school to get a master degree in structural design. I already have 3 graduate courses done from my previous job that helped in paying for it but I left that because I wanted to try designing buildings.This is the first time I have designed anything. If I decide to start looking again, I think I will try for a medium to large firm that will assist in paying for graduate studies.

Thanks for your response.

Calif

 

[Tomfh]

If it was me I would get another job.

I am a young engineer myself and I couldn't sleep at night if my boss didn't check my work. He doesn't check my calculations, but he does check my drawings.

Besides, working 12 hours a day 7 days a week is ridiculous.

 

[GregLocock]

I agree those hours are unnecessary and unfair and probably counterproductive.

Have you at least attempted to raise the lack of mentoring with your boss? Is your direct supervisor also your supervising PE?





Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[Calif]

Throughout my time here, I have given him my work and he quickly glances over it to see it makes sense. Greg you are right that I should at least attempt to raise the lack of mentoring with my boss but he seems too busy. He is hardly ever around and when he is, he has only a few minutes. Even if I raise the question up with him, I dont think it will get me far in changing things because he is very busy. The young architects that work here have the same problem. They have little direction. They try to do what he wants but it seems more that he wants everyone to take responsibility of the job they are on and get it out as soon as possible. I am still thinking about what will be the best thing to do.

Thanks

Calif

 

[epoisses]

Assuming your company has been ISO certified, the responsibilities in your company and necessary training for different positions must have been defined and documented. Have a look at how things are supposed to be on a formal level, see how that compares to the actual situation and take it from there... Good luck.

 

[proletariat]

This independance will help you build resourcefullness, even though you may be picking up bad habits. I would stay on no more than two years. Then, look for another job that has a mentor to offer while you are still "fresh" in the eyes of employers and can afford the stagnant pay of laterally moving to another entry-level position.

 

[JAE]

The only problem with that, proletariat, is that mentoring is most important in the first two years of structural careers. Once you have 3 or more years on your resume, there is less incentive, or percieved need, for mentoring as everyone assumes you are a semi-experienced engineer who has begun to learn via the projects they work on.

If I hire an engineer with 3 years on their resume, I'm going to assume they don't need the direct mentoring anymore and be less inclined to offer it.

 

[whyun]

I have a few questions:
Who is signing your structural design?
Does your firm have structural consultants for their larger projects?
Are you the only member of the structural discipline in your firm?

To be licensed in the future, you need work experience under a licensed engineer. Working only for licensed architects doesn't count.

I agree with JAE regarding importance of mentoring in the first two or three years. It is dangerous for your firm to not have anyone supervising/checking your work.

"he quickly glances over it to see it makes sense" doesn't make sense to me... He, I assume, is referring to your boss who is an architect. I'm not trying to degrade architects or anything, but how can an architect "check" your work to see if it makes sense? I bet he is only reviewing to see that there are no conflicts with his architectural design. Any structural design error is likely overlooked.

If your firm isn't ready to hire an experienced structural engineer to lead the structural group, I recommend you move on. There are many opportunities at structural only design firms (big or small), A/E firms with inhouse structural group (big or small).

I sincerely hope you find a great mentor. You will thank him for the rest of your career, even though he may have underpaid you... Regards.

 

[Calif]

He is an engineer and and architect. He also has a license in both fields with a masters degree in structural engineering and a bachelor in architecture. To answer your questions Whyun, he signs off on the structural drawings and there are no structural consultants on larger projects. When there is a large project, like a six story steel building, it is usually me doing most of the work. I show him along the way how things are layed out but he doesnt check my calculations. There is no standard, I mean that literally. When I came in, I found out that almost everyone did there own thing. Using AutoCad, there was a file system but no one did AutoCad the same. There was no standard on what was on the drawings. There was always basic stuff but most of the architects did there own thing. There is no ISO standards here. The consultant engineer that looked at my work found things which were missing from standard structural practices.

I think the reason he hired me is because it cheaper to hire someone without a license degree than someone with one.

Thanks for everyone advise. I am seriously considering all what has been said here. If there is anything else, please continue to advise.

Thank You

Calif

 

[Ashereng]

Calif,

I think you answered your own question.

He is taking advantage of you because you are new, non-licensed, and cheap. And, you work overtime (for free), come in on weekends (for free) and you are diligent to boot.

Time to move on - the grass IS greener on the otherside in your case.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[rday]

Calif,

I agree with JAE and most. Time to make a move. The first firm I worked for, the big boss ran a similar ship. My direct supervisor was for more hands on in training (both PEs).

My direct supervisor moved on shortly after I did (to a job he loves) and the big boss ... license currently under two year suspension by the board for substandard engineering practice.

Rik

 

[Senselessticker]

I agree with most other folks here....Time to make a move. It sounds like you are being taken advantage of. Try not to burn any bridges as you go.

Understand that "being taken advantage of" early on in your career may not be a bad thing. For example: I get taken advantage of everyday that I work. I work WAY out of the scope of my job description / pay grade. The company benefits from this finicially, and although I'm not making the dollars that most people make for the same work, I'm getting experience within 2 years that most engineers in A/E firms don't get for 5-10 years. I figure it will pay off years down the road.

So take what you've learned (if even by mistake or being taken advantage of) with you. Many engineers in A/E firms spend years doing "grunt" work before leading design efforts. It sounds like you've got to skip the grunt work peroid.....this is valuable.

Amidst Chaos....there is profit....

 

[whyun]

It seems that your boss who is an engineer and an architect should have the ability to mentor/train/supervise you but doesn't. Not having a good set of company standards can also create a lot of problems.

When looking for a new firm, few things to look for are:
1. Nice set of typical and standard details. Also someone who can explain them (not simply we've been doing it that way for 30 years)
2. Nice set of standard design guides/calculations for every day design tasks. This way, you don't get 15 different answers to one problem, you might get a few. Consistency among engineers in the office.
3. Decent collection of structural software and someone who knows when to use which program.
4. Company standard calc spreadsheet or MathCAD files and someone who understands them. (Author may have left the firm... At least someone should be able to explain the limitations of the design tools)
5. Should have one representative project for each building type, to be used as a reference and a template (calcs included).

My first job out of college, I had a great boss and a mentor. He paid me twice the minimum wage which hurt my ego, but with his organized office setup, I picked up many good habits. I've gone through seven jobs and it is not easy to find a firm that has the above list.

 

[Calif]

Thank You Whyun for your response. Since I have been there, I havent used one example calc for a project that he has done. The software that is there, value software meaning, they get the job done, easy to use, not very complicated. When I started, there was only StruCalc and Visual analysis to do the work. Nobody uses that software except me. I am the only one who uses it besides maybe him. Of course, I learned that on my own. There is only a small quantity of design guides like for pile foundation from CRC and an old design guide for composite beams. Everything else is word of mouth on what to do but I am pretty sure that I am over designing the seismic bracing for these buildings since I am only looking at the stresses in the structural members. I am seeing that he knows very well how to put things together but there isnt alot of technical stuff he knows. I have made my decision to start looking somewhere else. My plan was to stay at this company then move on in about 4 years but I cant risk jeopardizing my career by not learning what I need to learn at the start of my career. I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this forum with there opinions. Hopefully things will work out.

Thanks you

Calif

 

[sugarshot]

Once upon a time a pedestrian walkway several floors up between buildings came crashing down. After removing the bodies, they discovered that it had been attached to the buildings with some small number of 1/4 inch bolts.

Not only did the boss not check the drawing work, but the construction folks didn't stop to wonder either.

 

[HgTX]

That's a pretty oversimplified and inaccurate retelling of the Hyatt Regency disaster in Kansas City.

Hg


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[TDAA]

For your sake, I hope you move on. If your boss is not ensuring the designs he stamps are not meeting the standard of care, then not only is he not serving you well, by teaching you the standard, but he is also performing a disservice to the public.

Disciplinary action could happen to anyone, due to an error or omission. Providing a pattern of service that increases the odds of that happening should not be what you should be learning.

 

[Calif]

Ok, any suggestion on how to find another job? Besides Career Builder and Monster websites?

Calif



The resisant virtues of the structure that we seek depend on their form; it is through their form that they are stable, not because of an awkward accumulation of material. There is nothing more noble and elegant from an intellectual viewpoint than this: to resist through form. Eladio Dieste