Another designer at my company got a job offer from a smaller company that does work for us when we get to busy. He went to our boss and told him about the offer and gave the company the opportunity to match it. Instead our boss called the owner of the smaller company and threatend not to send any more work to them unless they dropped their offer to the designer. Basically they were trying to keep the designer without having to give him any more money. The small company owner stood his ground and the designer left to join them.
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Is this legal? 12
- Thread starter mlandm
- Start date
Anyone with a legal degree out there?-
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- #4
There are no winners here...
Shame on the small company, for attempting to steal a customer's valued employee.
Shame on that employee, for using a good opportunity presented in good faith to strongarm gains that would mean little to him in the long run, and could only sour what was probably a good business relationship no matter what the outcome of his bid.
Too bad for the big company. No way for them to win.
![[bat]](/data/assets/smilies/bat.gif "[bat] [bat]")
Due to illness, the part of The Tick will be played by... The Tick.
Shame on the small company, for attempting to steal a customer's valued employee.
Shame on that employee, for using a good opportunity presented in good faith to strongarm gains that would mean little to him in the long run, and could only sour what was probably a good business relationship no matter what the outcome of his bid.
Too bad for the big company. No way for them to win.
Due to illness, the part of The Tick will be played by... The Tick.-
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- #5
Two errors.
If you have to blackmail your company into upping your rewards, they will win in the end. Some employers can be surprisingly vindictive and will indeed take actions that threaten their own survival.
You will find some discussion on this in this and other threads.
Second, the assumption by the bosses that you will be happy to remain after their blatant abuse. Never imagine that management are enlightened, intelingent or rational. There may be some such but safe working practise is to assume there are not.
Incidently, I personaly don't believe in ever revealing a job ofer to the mangement. If you want to go, go. If you want to stay, find another way to get what you want. In this case if you took the job it would avoid some of the problems but management would probably be less antagonistic to you and your potential employer than in this situation.
JMW
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
If you have to blackmail your company into upping your rewards, they will win in the end. Some employers can be surprisingly vindictive and will indeed take actions that threaten their own survival.
You will find some discussion on this in this and other threads.
Second, the assumption by the bosses that you will be happy to remain after their blatant abuse. Never imagine that management are enlightened, intelingent or rational. There may be some such but safe working practise is to assume there are not.
Incidently, I personaly don't believe in ever revealing a job ofer to the mangement. If you want to go, go. If you want to stay, find another way to get what you want. In this case if you took the job it would avoid some of the problems but management would probably be less antagonistic to you and your potential employer than in this situation.
JMW
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
If I was the current boss I would tell the employee that he should go with the offer. After all even a valuable employee who is open to offers from others is liable to jump ship at any time for more bucks. Especially in this job market where there are many good designers/engineers looking for a good company to work for. It's not worth the risk to the company especially if this employee is involved in long term or complex projects. I would also not do business with the company that offered the new position in the future.
I don't know if anyone broke a law but I do see an ethics problem in stealing employees.
ietech
I don't know if anyone broke a law but I do see an ethics problem in stealing employees.
ietech
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- #7
I tend to agree with jmw generally.
I would say the following:
1. The smaller company didn't break any laws, legal or ethical. They simply saw a good candidate and tried to hire them. Now what they did, by hiring a valued employee of one of their clients was simply stupid, in my opinion.
2. The larger company didn't break any laws by threatening the smaller company. They have the right to contract with whomever they please for whatever reason they please (except for laws against racial, gender, etc. bias). They were also just plain stupid to attempt to retain a valued employee without valuing the employee directly. In other words, they tried to reduce the incentives to leave rather than increase the incentives to stay....again...stupid.
3. The employee was caught in the middle and, in my view, was perhaps a little stupid (can anyone be a "little" stupid?) by attempting to up his value to his employer with an offer from the smaller company. I just can't imagine my new position making my former company jump for joy at the prospect of still giving work to the new smaller company.
I would say the following:
1. The smaller company didn't break any laws, legal or ethical. They simply saw a good candidate and tried to hire them. Now what they did, by hiring a valued employee of one of their clients was simply stupid, in my opinion.
2. The larger company didn't break any laws by threatening the smaller company. They have the right to contract with whomever they please for whatever reason they please (except for laws against racial, gender, etc. bias). They were also just plain stupid to attempt to retain a valued employee without valuing the employee directly. In other words, they tried to reduce the incentives to leave rather than increase the incentives to stay....again...stupid.
3. The employee was caught in the middle and, in my view, was perhaps a little stupid (can anyone be a "little" stupid?) by attempting to up his value to his employer with an offer from the smaller company. I just can't imagine my new position making my former company jump for joy at the prospect of still giving work to the new smaller company.
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- #8
I'm not sure why this situation is "stealing."
When you hire someone, unless he's already out of work, you taking someone else's employee. An unsolicited offer was accepted, which means that the employee was a clear flight risk given the opportunity.
The employee used this offer to attempt to coerce additional pay from his employer.
The employer feels the the employee is worth more money, but is unwilling to let him go and attempts to coerce the other company into reneging on a good faith offer.
If anything, the company making the offer appears to be the cleanest of the bunch.
TTFN
When you hire someone, unless he's already out of work, you taking someone else's employee. An unsolicited offer was accepted, which means that the employee was a clear flight risk given the opportunity.
The employee used this offer to attempt to coerce additional pay from his employer.
The employer feels the the employee is worth more money, but is unwilling to let him go and attempts to coerce the other company into reneging on a good faith offer.
If anything, the company making the offer appears to be the cleanest of the bunch.
TTFN
I agree with IRstuffs last post. I do not see anything illegal about any of the parties actions or comments. I also do not see anything unethical about the employees actions or the hiring company. Anyone that believes this does not happen very often are kidding themselves. Engineering can be very specialized. Because of this, there may not be a lot of competition, hence few places for the engineer to go based on his/her skill set. This may or may not be the case here but is worth thinking about.
I hate to say that two wrongs make a right, but sometimes it makes you feel better. Why in the heck do employees (engineers) have to hold themselves up in such a high manner when there are no companies which hold the same regard for ethics? I say the employee did nothing wrong and was only acting to improve his situation. Its sad but nowadays its every engineer for himself.
I hate to say that two wrongs make a right, but sometimes it makes you feel better. Why in the heck do employees (engineers) have to hold themselves up in such a high manner when there are no companies which hold the same regard for ethics? I say the employee did nothing wrong and was only acting to improve his situation. Its sad but nowadays its every engineer for himself.
I agree with JAE.
If the big company uses the little company for "overflow work" then it stands to reason the lines of business of both is similar, and that in general they are in competition. Companies try to hire good employees away from competitors all the time.
If the big company uses the little company for "overflow work" then it stands to reason the lines of business of both is similar, and that in general they are in competition. Companies try to hire good employees away from competitors all the time.
Much depends on the manner in which the employee handled the situation.
As presented, he would appear to be the loser all round.
His current employer will resent the attempt to finesse a raise and the prospective employer may resent the fact that his offer was used in such a manner.
In such a case the prospective employer may re-appraise the employee both for his use of the job offer to try and better his position at his existing company, which suggests he does not want to leave, and because it suggests that he may find himself in a similar situation later on.
I think some valid comments have been made about the existing employers attitudes by other members.
In this situation the fact that the potential emploer is a supplier to the existing complicates matters. Had the employee accepted the offer and gone then all would be well. As it is it makes a bad situation worse.
If you lack subtelety then don't expect a subtle response.
JMW
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
As presented, he would appear to be the loser all round.
His current employer will resent the attempt to finesse a raise and the prospective employer may resent the fact that his offer was used in such a manner.
In such a case the prospective employer may re-appraise the employee both for his use of the job offer to try and better his position at his existing company, which suggests he does not want to leave, and because it suggests that he may find himself in a similar situation later on.
I think some valid comments have been made about the existing employers attitudes by other members.
In this situation the fact that the potential emploer is a supplier to the existing complicates matters. Had the employee accepted the offer and gone then all would be well. As it is it makes a bad situation worse.
If you lack subtelety then don't expect a subtle response.
JMW
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
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- #12
My opinion is the big company made a mistake trying to keep the employee. Likely he will jump at the next opportunity - and if he is smart, won't tell them first the next time. Had it been my call to make, I would have told the employee to take the offer -- and then I would have stopped using the small firm.
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- #13
Yes, this does happen all the time. I don't see anything illegal in it, but some of the actions/reactions could be construed as unethical.
Whenever I have heard of the situation of an employee going to his boss and telling him he has a job offer he's considering, the employee is no longer working at that company a month later. Most companies don't take kindly to being coerced by an employee. NO ONE is irreplacable.
If the designer in this case had decided to go to work for the contractor, then he should simply tell his boss that he is leaving. It shouldn't matter where he is going. If it comes up (and it most likely will), then he can say, but should do so in a positive way. For instance, "Well, I'll be working for XYZ and that may help strengthen the bond between the two companies."
Just my $0.02...
Whenever I have heard of the situation of an employee going to his boss and telling him he has a job offer he's considering, the employee is no longer working at that company a month later. Most companies don't take kindly to being coerced by an employee. NO ONE is irreplacable.
If the designer in this case had decided to go to work for the contractor, then he should simply tell his boss that he is leaving. It shouldn't matter where he is going. If it comes up (and it most likely will), then he can say, but should do so in a positive way. For instance, "Well, I'll be working for XYZ and that may help strengthen the bond between the two companies."
Just my $0.02...
ddelaiarro
Mechanical
My main question is why would you tell them what company you're being offered a job by? Why not just say "I was offered a job by another company and wanted to give you the option of matching the offer they gave me" ? There's no need to tell them what company you are going to. If need be, you could say "I'm going to be working for a company in the XYZ industry" and leave it at that. It really isn't anyone's business who you're going to be working for; especially in this situation where the business relationships could be strained through the process.
I give a lot of credit to the smaller company for sticking to their guns. A lot of places might crumble under that pressure. I can see why the larger company would not want to use the smaller company any more, but don't necessarily agree with it. If Employee A can make a better living working for a company that I buy from, then far be it from me to hold him up like that. Hell, it might even strengthen the bond between our two companies - he already knows our product and how we operate and can help facilitate any future interactions.
Now, if the small company is continuously stealing employees, then we have another situation....
Dan
I give a lot of credit to the smaller company for sticking to their guns. A lot of places might crumble under that pressure. I can see why the larger company would not want to use the smaller company any more, but don't necessarily agree with it. If Employee A can make a better living working for a company that I buy from, then far be it from me to hold him up like that. Hell, it might even strengthen the bond between our two companies - he already knows our product and how we operate and can help facilitate any future interactions.
Now, if the small company is continuously stealing employees, then we have another situation....
Dan
There is too much we don't know to speculate about these two companies, their present and future relationships. We might project that the supply company is targeting an increased share of the client companies business by addressing the resource issue, weakening the cleint and strengthening themselves, or we might suspect the supplier comapny is strengthening its position to obtain more work from the market place i.e. positioning to compete with the client company.
Whichever scenario you chose, to me it is bad form and often counter-productive to attempt a pay bargaining strategy based on alternative offers of employment.
Far better is to approach the employer without declaring a potential to be employed elsewhere or even the inclination. Far better to seek to improve ones position by making known your aspirations for improvement within the company in a non-agressive manner. Indeed, in some companies it is a part of the HR inspired man management program to actively seek to discover the goals and ambitions of employees and to support those which are practical and mutually beneficial.
I don't think the term "stealing" is appropriate. It may be resented but unless an employee has terms in his contract preventing him from taking similar employement with a competitor or supplier, there is no foul.
This s a situation with more potential risk than possible benefit and i suspect that many more members will be able to report examples of where it has all gone horribly wrong than where there is a genuine success. If you get a better job offer and want to take it, do. If you want to stay,and improve your position, there are far better aproaches, though for the most part getting any sort of improvement from a current employer is difficult.
It is one reason why so many employees change jobs so often these days, because it is realy the only way to improve your conditions and expand your horizons.
So far as i know, unless there is a restrictive covenant in your contract, you don't even have to say whereyou are going.
JMW
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
Whichever scenario you chose, to me it is bad form and often counter-productive to attempt a pay bargaining strategy based on alternative offers of employment.
Far better is to approach the employer without declaring a potential to be employed elsewhere or even the inclination. Far better to seek to improve ones position by making known your aspirations for improvement within the company in a non-agressive manner. Indeed, in some companies it is a part of the HR inspired man management program to actively seek to discover the goals and ambitions of employees and to support those which are practical and mutually beneficial.
I don't think the term "stealing" is appropriate. It may be resented but unless an employee has terms in his contract preventing him from taking similar employement with a competitor or supplier, there is no foul.
This s a situation with more potential risk than possible benefit and i suspect that many more members will be able to report examples of where it has all gone horribly wrong than where there is a genuine success. If you get a better job offer and want to take it, do. If you want to stay,and improve your position, there are far better aproaches, though for the most part getting any sort of improvement from a current employer is difficult.
It is one reason why so many employees change jobs so often these days, because it is realy the only way to improve your conditions and expand your horizons.
So far as i know, unless there is a restrictive covenant in your contract, you don't even have to say whereyou are going.
JMW
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
I agree with The Tick, on the second and third points. If you want to leave your company leave. Giving your current company an "opportunity" to match the future company's offer is a dubious opportunity especially for the one who's leaving. For the following reasons: You will always be know as the guy that gets raises for threatening to leave by you fellow employees (vs. the guy who gets raises because of performance).
On the other hand this technique does produce for those that try it, but I would find it rather damaging to my character.
I would suggest the following: Tell the future company that if you give me exactly what I want, when my current company asks, "Is there anything that we can do to make you stay?" I will reply "No, Thank you very much." If this commitment can't be given, you a) shouldn't leave or b) negotiated poorly.
Jackpot
On the other hand this technique does produce for those that try it, but I would find it rather damaging to my character.
I would suggest the following: Tell the future company that if you give me exactly what I want, when my current company asks, "Is there anything that we can do to make you stay?" I will reply "No, Thank you very much." If this commitment can't be given, you a) shouldn't leave or b) negotiated poorly.
Jackpot
Is it ethical to ask for a raise? Is it right to ask for one since it's been three years from your last? Should you have to ask in the first place. Some folks might consider this begging. Not knowing the whole/exact scenario clouds our judgement.
I worked for a company that if you didn't threaten to quit you wouldn't get a dime. The owner enjoyed the challange of winning us back, his son the president, didn't agree with his dad. It got to be quite the game. We'd dicker for hours over ten cents.
At another company I was given raises and nice merit raises, without asking.
It's pretty gutsy to tell your current where you're going. If they ask where you're going, is it ethical to lie or tell them it's none of their business? Ethical and tolerance to each other should work both ways, in my opinion.
You have to play the company's game if you enjoy where you work and enjoy the financial benifits.
Maybe I deviated from this post too much. Sorry if I did.
I worked for a company that if you didn't threaten to quit you wouldn't get a dime. The owner enjoyed the challange of winning us back, his son the president, didn't agree with his dad. It got to be quite the game. We'd dicker for hours over ten cents.
At another company I was given raises and nice merit raises, without asking.
It's pretty gutsy to tell your current where you're going. If they ask where you're going, is it ethical to lie or tell them it's none of their business? Ethical and tolerance to each other should work both ways, in my opinion.
You have to play the company's game if you enjoy where you work and enjoy the financial benifits.
Maybe I deviated from this post too much. Sorry if I did.
Everything done here was perfectly legal. Like some other posters here have mentioned, the larger company can stop doing work with the contractor at any time.
Also it is above the board to tell your company you have another offer elsewhere if you A.) Genuinly are considering the second job and B.) If you do want to stay at your current company, and are letting them know how they can keep you.
Legal Services
Also it is above the board to tell your company you have another offer elsewhere if you A.) Genuinly are considering the second job and B.) If you do want to stay at your current company, and are letting them know how they can keep you.
Legal Services
Being legal, ethical, honest and above board isn't the same as being the right or the smart thing to do.
Experience, not legality, suggests that advertising to your employer that you are looking for another job or actively considering an offer may well be legal and above board, but sometimes, just a little dumb.
Of course, there are ways to do things and ways not to do them. There are even "proper channels" which can be used. Annual appraisals are often the opportunity to express concerns about all matters work related and especially ones own aspirations, expectations and goals. At such times it is appropriate to suggest that you have already considered other job offers and rejected them (without using them as a bargaining ploy[/]). This tells the management that you aren't some tame employee and above all that they may not be given an opportunity to match an external job offer. These meetings then establish what you consider acceptable and they enable your boss to plan the future more effectively, especially his budgets.
Your boss will not apreciate being told that you are resigning but that if he can come up with a better deal, you will stay. He now has a situation where he is being challenged to do something. He has budgets. when he puts forward his budgets for approval, he can argue for some extension to his salaries budget because he knows that you are not satsified and he knows that the salary you are getting is below what you can get. He will fight for you there and in that forum.
Presented with a sudden "demand" he now has to go to his bosses and make a case for a special addittion to the budget. Then you get a counter offer, he will not go too often to his bosses. It makes him look bad that he got his budget wrong in the first place, then he thought he could keep you for a bit extra and now he can't. Even if he does keep you, you are now a worry. How long will you stay? will you get another job offer that he can't match? You are unpredictable.
He is far more likley to accept yout resignation and then recruit to replace you.
In short, there are good ways and bad ways to do all things and the best way is only found when you understand the way things work.
JMW
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
Experience, not legality, suggests that advertising to your employer that you are looking for another job or actively considering an offer may well be legal and above board, but sometimes, just a little dumb.
Of course, there are ways to do things and ways not to do them. There are even "proper channels" which can be used. Annual appraisals are often the opportunity to express concerns about all matters work related and especially ones own aspirations, expectations and goals. At such times it is appropriate to suggest that you have already considered other job offers and rejected them (without using them as a bargaining ploy[/]). This tells the management that you aren't some tame employee and above all that they may not be given an opportunity to match an external job offer. These meetings then establish what you consider acceptable and they enable your boss to plan the future more effectively, especially his budgets.
Your boss will not apreciate being told that you are resigning but that if he can come up with a better deal, you will stay. He now has a situation where he is being challenged to do something. He has budgets. when he puts forward his budgets for approval, he can argue for some extension to his salaries budget because he knows that you are not satsified and he knows that the salary you are getting is below what you can get. He will fight for you there and in that forum.
Presented with a sudden "demand" he now has to go to his bosses and make a case for a special addittion to the budget. Then you get a counter offer, he will not go too often to his bosses. It makes him look bad that he got his budget wrong in the first place, then he thought he could keep you for a bit extra and now he can't. Even if he does keep you, you are now a worry. How long will you stay? will you get another job offer that he can't match? You are unpredictable.
He is far more likley to accept yout resignation and then recruit to replace you.
In short, there are good ways and bad ways to do all things and the best way is only found when you understand the way things work.
JMW
Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
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- #20
jmw said:
And, possibly find someone who will do it cheaper...not to mention the burned bridges...
No winners in the situation as the OP outlined...I've never used a job offer from outside to ask for a raise, however, one was offered to get me to back out of leaving once. I told my boss that I had made a commitment & my commitments needed to be kept or my word would be worth nothing...He accepted my resignation and 2.5 years later I returned to the employer I left (albeit in another state.) Another year passed & I'm back in the same organization & work site. My management still seems delighted at my return.
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