Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k. 31

[chris9]

In the UK, tradesmen such as plumbers, plasterers, bricklayers, joiners and electricians earn far more than fully qualified and experienced engineers.

Generally you can become a tradesman in a couple of years on the job training and perhaps a short college course. Compare this with a minimum of 6 years full time study and four years post grad experience to become a professional engineer.

Is the UK the only country to have this kind of job market or do other countries also experience this?

 

[jmw]

Don't stop there, you can earn more in pretty well any job except engineering and i include some management level jobs.

Be a train driver, for example.

I've know a few engineers jack it in an become self employed gas fitters, plumbers and a few other things besides.

 

[2dye4]

I have been thinking this for a long time. I like to
tinker with things, build stuff, make measurements, analyze
problems etc.. but my engineering jobs have been
scheduling, meetings, negotiating with dishonest
backstabbing people, perpetual 24/7 stress, sleepless nights etc...
I have watched the health of my coworkers deteriorate
before my eyes at an astonishing rate,far in excess of what
would be considered normal, all because of the constant
PUSH PUSH PUSH for goals that cannot be met.
I want to switch jobs to more a technician position that
just work with hands on and do the things I like. I will
take 1/2 pay just leave me to do the things I know I can
acomplish and leave the building every day without the
sense of dread and failure that is common with
impossible scheduals and goals.
However most employers wont hire this way because of
overqualified arguement. How should a person convice them
I will be a happier and more productive at this level.

I know I am a whiner.
But I want to live a little before being covered with dirt

 

[TheTick]

Have you tried plumbing? It's hard, messy work, and can take a bit of brainpower, as well.

There are two types of people in the world: the kind that believe that people can be categorized into one of two groups and the kind that don't.

http://www.EsoxRepublic.com

 

[BJC]

TheTick

Sooner or later everyone need a plumber, and when they do they are desperate and will pay what ever they have to. In constrast many people don't know what engineers do and could not conceive of using one if they did know what they do.

Chris9- It works the same way here in the colonies. A lot of engineers seem to have distain for electricans and their unions. Mean while out in the parking lot the engineers get in theri Saturns and Toyotas and the electricans get in their SUVs and Corvettes. We could learn something from them but we are to smart.

 

[Comcokid]

You will always find inequalities in pay. Years ago, I found out that striking baggage handlers with two yrs experience at the local bus station were making more than me as a degreed engineer with the same experience. At a later time, I found that dock workers at the local freight company were making more.

Last year, my brother-in-law, a chemical engineer at a major oil company, lost his R&D job when two corporations merged, yet they kept all the presidents and vice presidents after the merger (and paid them 7 figure bonuses for staying!!!).

At times (in fact most of the time), you can only be in engineering because you love it. Why else would you work under and be directed by management that doesn't have technical degrees (and sometimes only a high-school diploma) just so when your idea proves to be unique, to sign away the patent rights for $1.

Lets face it, engineers do it because we, in our own way, are a kind of artist, whose canvas is the 'practical' and whose paint are the physical natural laws which we blend together to make something good for others, while fighting entropy in all it's forms.

thread731-82110

And, 2dye4, frequently the lower paying engineering jobs are the MOST stressful, because any company that pays you low doesn't consider you to be worth much as a person either. Believe me, I've been there and done that!

 

[CRG]

In the United States, Union wages are protected for the bidding of all government contracts by the Davis-Bacon Act. Many types of jobs are easily outsourced to the lowest bidder; however, construction jobs paid by government contracts require the winning bidder to pay their workers comparable wages to that of the Union in the area where the work is performed. As such, it makes it difficult for these types of construction jobs to be economically outsourced. It is cheaper to use local labor if local skilled personnel are available.

This is in effect price control. With price control market forces cannot yield the lowest cost. Hence you have construction jobs paying more than market forces would dictate.

Now engineering is easily outsourced and there are no government price controls. This yields an engineering work force that is paid what they are worth. The question is not why engineers are paid less than trade workers; but instead, why do we as a country tolerate price fixing for union jobs?

 

[BJC]

I have met meny engineers who think Union Electricans get their high wages buy some gangster like organization. They have in the past gotten aggressive ( read the histroy of the IWW) but those cases are often over played by oponents of organized labor.
Those same oponets are not doubt happy with the current state of engineering. You can hire engineers cheaply and if you find a cheper one fire the first and put the second one on the books.
Unions have their roots in the craft guilds goning back to the middle ages and before. They protected their income with an organization and by controlling the quality of their work. Engineers don't do much to control the quality of their work. Some are good and some are better. From an employers perspective there all just engineers. As Engineers salrys go down do you think the quality of engineering will get better? Are better people going to attracted to it?
The Davis Bacon Act becsuse the Unions are active in politics. Indivual engineers probably don't make enough political contributions to make a 5 second TV commercial in the presidential campaign. Engineering companies do, but their goals are not the same and indivual engineers. Unions hire lobbiest so do doctors, teachers, pharmacists, airline pilots, etc. Everyone except engineers who think they are above such things.

 

[CRG]

BJC

I am not an opponent of organized labor. I am an opponent of having my government involved in price control. In the end, price control of any commodity can only raise the standard of living for some at the expense of others. When I shop for goods, I have the choice to purchase products based on quality of goods and price (AKA value). When you limit your selection of goods that have there prices fixed for a given market; rarely do you end up with good value. So the David-Bacon Act creates poor value in the market place at the expense of others.

I am not sure how you determine that ”Engineers don't do much to control the quality of their work.” Are you talking about industry exempt engineers?

CRG

 

[chris9]

I was offered two jobs when I left school. One was a gas pipe fitter and the other a junior draughtsman with prospects of attaining Chartered Engineer status. I opted for the latter because it sounded like the best job at the time.

I like my job but when you have a family to support you owe it to them to earn a decent living. My salary isn't that bad for an engineer just average. Even with 15 years experience and 8 years academic study under my belt I am seriously considering re-training as a tradesman.

My 20 year old friend earns double what I do with 2 years experience as a brick layer. I will be advising my child NOT to be an engineer and I think millions of others feel the same way.

It's a shame that our goverment allows and sometimes actively encourages the loss of engineering jobs to India and China.

 

[corus]

Generally engineers in the UK qualify in only 3 to 4 years and most often with only a HNC (which is below the level of a degree). For 6 years study then you'd have to be studying to be an architect. Additional post graduate qualifications in engineering are rare and generally take a few years for a doctorate, one year for a Masters. Most prefer to settle for chartered status which you get after a few years if you fill in a few forms and pay your dues, it seems. The headline grabbing story that plumbers earn 60k a year is pretty much a fallacy in general and probably limited to the confines of London. Mostly they do run their own businesses hwoever whereas engineers tend to prefer to work for someone else. As far as telling the taxman goes I'm sure that plumbers earn a mere pittance.

corus

 

[chris9]

corus,

To be a brick layer requires a 1 year city and guilds and some on the job experience. To be a Chartered Engineer requires 2 years for A levels and 4 years for an MEng plus 4 years experience in a position of responsibility.

Employed brick layers I know get £1000 per week in Birmingham (If they don't do overtime). I don't know any Chartered Engineers who earn that who are not company directors.

 

[oldluddite]

I was 45 when the company that I worked for as Chief Engineer was taken over by assett strippers. They wanted to flatten (and dispense with) my R&D dept to make a road into the rear car park to build property. I said 'its over my dead body', and it was! I remember the big boss telling me that I would one day thank him for chucking me out. Well I don't, but it started me on a path to being my own boss. I would never have gone this way on my own, and I am sad to say that that because new product development was halted that particular engineering business, which employed over 300 people and had been in business since the 1920's went down the pan.
After 16 years during which I looked forward to going to work every day, and earnt lots more money, I am glad I went down the route of starting a business. It was hard at first, but it has been very rewarding in many ways.
Be proud that you are an engineer, you have completed a really tough, academically challenging training. Its a waste for a real engineer to go down the tradesman route. Better to use your skill and knowledge to do your own thing, and build some sort of business around that, rather than simply fritter all that hard learned knowledge away on being a tradesman. Self employment, and building a business may not be right for everyone, some engineers are just 'meetings engineers', they have no skill except perhaps project management and organising ability. But even for them, there are possibilities.
Engineering teaches you to build things, build them right and and build them safe. Unlike Accountants, you can see into the future, and what could be, rather than just fill a sheet with figures telling what happened. You should be able to plan, project, and test the viability of a product, a service, or a project because that was how you were trained. Its a waste to squander all that skill and knowledge by simply become a tradesman. Unlike me, if you are dissatisfied with working for a platry sum for other people, give yourself the luxury of planning out your path to a more rewarding career, and make that jump.

"Putting Automation into CAD ©"

 

[TheTick]

I really am at a loss as to where engineers get the idea that their efforts are more valuable than those of nearly every blue collar tradesman, to the point where they are personally offended by the idea. No one with any credibility made that assertion when I was in school. My school failed to teach me that. Perhaps they should lose their accreditation for that oversight.

 

[BJC]

CRG
Most unions take an active part in the state boards that regulate and govern their activities. They have monthly meetings and discuss such things. Engineers for the most part leave to others (which in most cases. turns out to be those who run smaller engineering firms).
Unions are very active in setting the requirements for education and experience in their trade. Engineers leave it to others. Engineers could learn from them. As I said the roots of such activities are in the guilds where people took pride in their work. Engineers take pride in their work but seem to be clueless in protecting it or themselves.
Most of the goods you buy have their prices fixed one way or the other. I think it's just easier to think you see it if the money goes to a union electrician on a Davis Bacon job. Money doesn’t stay in any one’s pocket long, some of it probably gets around to you. I've worked on several jobs that were in part funded by union pension funds.
I'm not sure about quality of work, hard to define. If there is an engineer doing shoddy work what happens to him or her. Most of his or her peers never hear of it and probably don't care.
As for industry exempt engineers they are for the most part super technicians. I not trying to agitate anyone but if you draw two boundaries, one being professional (say like doctors) an the other 100% craftsman ( like electricians). The answer is how most engineers work and how are they treated by their employers. The answer (happily for the company) is near the craftsman end and without the bothersome union.
I am not in a union but a lot of engineers have pre-conceived ideals that keep them from learning. If your have the oppotunity talk with a local union official you may be surprised.

 

[CRG]

BJC

Are you a registered professional engineer? It seems that by your response that you would be in favor of requiring all engineers to become licensed professionals. This would result in having control over quality of education, experience, and ongoing education that you like with the unions. If you have the opportunity to talk with members of the state licensing board for professional engineers or professional engineers, you may be surprised.

CRG

 

[BJC]

CRG
I am registered in 6 states and do talk with memebers of the board. I have been asked to set on the board. I have more time now and may do so.
I think engineers are important to society and the wellfare of everyone on the planet. Engineers are the ultimate economist.
Being important as they are why are they paid so poorly in respect to other professions? My point stated poorly as is was (and with comparison to trade unions) was that engineers may be their own worst enemy.

 

[EddyC]

Folks,

Lets remember that tradespeople generally work longer hours, odd hours, odd days and in all kinds of weather. They also have a greater exposure to injury than engineers. When you factor these things in, the wages are about the same for tradespeople and engineers.

 

[jmw]

Well i don't know what sort of hours you work but i work pretty well all the hours God sends.
And safe? Well, how safe is a land lubber on fuelling barge in the Baltic?
Now i survived several trips to an oil refinery in Southern siberia but on one trip a colleague succumbed to too much potato juice (it arrived at the table in an almost identical bottle to the bottled water) and on another another colleague was too polite to send his chicken back to the kitchen for a second time and spent a week in hospital with food poisoning. The reason we were there was to help overcome the problem of their workers having to clamber around on tanks in weather worse than the 30degC below that i experienced.

I have spent several months doing my normal office week and then flying off to Portugal each weekend for several months to work on trial equipment in a power station which meant only 2-4hrs sleep over the weekend.

No overtime, no time in lieu, no thanks either, no that i think of it.

I am sure many of the members here will think this is cushy stuff.

 

[Lorentz]

I take my hat off to you jmw, it is people like you who keep this world running.

I hope that some day your contributions will be more appropriately recognized and rewarded.

By the way, thanks Chris9 for starting this thread.