Job Advertisement, 2 posts û Plumber ú60k, Engineer ú25k. 31

[chris9]

In the UK, tradesmen such as plumbers, plasterers, bricklayers, joiners and electricians earn far more than fully qualified and experienced engineers.

Generally you can become a tradesman in a couple of years on the job training and perhaps a short college course. Compare this with a minimum of 6 years full time study and four years post grad experience to become a professional engineer.

Is the UK the only country to have this kind of job market or do other countries also experience this?

 

[Haf]

Engineers tend to be practical (i.e., cheap) by nature, so they tend to live modestly. I believe that is why you don't see a lot of engineers that drive expensive SUV's and sports cars.

Engineers often complain that they cannot afford things like expensive cars, houses, etc., when in truth they can afford these things, but are unwilling to finance with little down and/or potentially high rates.

The fact that you see a tradesman with a nicer car or house than you does not mean that they make more money than engineers. I think they're just more willing to buy homes and cars with 0-5% down. As an analytical and conservative person (as many engineers are), it is difficult to do this.

Tradesmen might say they are "living life;" an engineer may say that the tradesmen are "living beyond their means."

Haf

 

[TheTick]

In the U.S., many tradesmen are self-employed, which allows for all kinds of tax breaks.

 

[corus]

The same thing applies in the UK, most tradesmen are self employed which is why you will never see an advertisement for a plumber at 60k. As far as the tax man is concerned, a plumber's income may be high but his outgoings will also be high and actual taxable earnings will be modestly low, that is assuming they have a good accountant.

corus

 

[jmw]

And some cash in hand jobs.

 

[chris9]

That is a major advantage of being a tradesman. How many times have you paid someone cash in hand? A self employed engineer can't wipe someone's a*se without providing a VAT receipt.

 

[makeup]

Yes its all true, building seems to be the thing at the moment, but for how long. And I agree that you can earn a lot more for doing a lot less. I spent 20 years on my tools until the challenge waned, then went and did a degree, and subsequently found it impossible to get a job that would encourage me to use my new skills. So I left engineering and now work as a consultant helping small firms to get going. Not what I wanted but I am not prepared to do something for nothing, which is what most engineering companies seem to expect. I now have no stress I work good hours and I am home every night. One day I hope to return to engineering but not until the industry gets its act together.

 

[QCE]

I have not experienced what most of you are talking about. I make as much as most trades people and I'm an EIT (engineer in training). Well the trades people are earning their max, I'm just beginning my career. When I have 10 years of experience I will be earning more than tradespeople with 30 years experience.

The only place I have seen tradespeople earn more than engineers is in England. In England the garbageman is a sanitation engineer so I guess noone has much respect for the title "engineer".

 

[chris9]

England is a nation of shopkeepers and salesmen. There must be a stage when we can no longer prop up the economy by shining each others shoes and borrowing money to pay each other for the service.

 

[MetalMickey]

Just to add to the good debate started by Chris9, a little experience of my own to help lighten the mood:

One leaking bath, two plumbers at £40 per hr plus callout fee failed to fix it. Myself a lowly Materials Engineer admitted defeat and fixed it myself using 5000psi pipeline fittings applying usual design codes. Result - Even my mother in law can use the bath without fear of leakage!

Seriously though, I know of a number of pipeline engineers who have considered going into plumbing, and I know of technicians who do plumbing jobs at weekends to supplement their income.

I guess it boils down to supply and demand. More people have houses with plumbing problems than companies with engineering needs (generated I guess from the decline in the manufacturing industry particularly in the UK).

In summary, friends of mine who are trademen work very long hours, for themselves, and will have their mortgages paid off long before me. Good luck to them and more fool me!

 

[jmw]

I always wondered about that jibe by Napoleon.
It would appear to be another of those backhanded compliments.
A recent TV program from onbe of the competeing TV Historians explained that till Wedwood etc we didn't have shops, people got most of what they wanted from the local market.
So it's all about the industrial revolution and all the innovations that came with it.
It does reflect on engineering very well.

Another thing to thank Napoleon for is the different plumbing in the South of England... the water tank included in southern houses is to enable each householder to ahve a store of water should the French invade.

JMW

http://www.viscoanalyser.com

Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[GregLocock]

So, realistically, around the world, do self-employed plumbers, on average, earn more than self-employed engineers?

Or could this whole thread just possibly be based on one example of an experienced self-employed plumber vs a presumably fairly young engineer working for a company full time?

Mind you, since the Institute(s) of (various) Engineers in the UK consistently push for /more/ engineering graduates, one can only assume that they perceive that their Members are in desperately short supply.... For some reason the laws of supply and demand do not apply to engineers.

FWIW in Australia experienced engineers earn about 40%-120% more than top-band tradesmen, although if either go self-employed there is obviously a different environment. There again I know of at least two engineering contractors paid in excess of 200 bucks an hour, how many plumbers earn that for sitting in front of a screen 40 hours a week?



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[chris9]

I was at a party the other week and was chatting with an unqualified plumber. He was saying that where he lived in the North East of England there are too many plumbers. That's why he only earned £30k working for his company and he was considering studying for the correct qualifications and going self employed to boost his income.

He was very surprised when he found out what we Engineers earn.

 

[ScottyUK]

Living in the North-East of England myself, I'd have to interject that registered gas fitter and plumber are two different animals. The real money seems to come when you have a CORGI* registration number with your name on it.

Have I considered joining their ranks? You bet! And I'm a degree-qualified chartered electrical engineer with a fair bit of experience. I'm waiting to see if the current trend in power engineering continues - the job market is healthier than it has been in many years, certainly the best it has been since Thatcher's government broke up the CEGB. Hopefully our numbers will continue to dwindle and our rates will have to go up. Or failing that, the CORGI guys will have a field day when the UK reverts to gas lights!

*CORGI - Council Of Registered Gas Installers



------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

 

[oceanamber]

Over the years a lot of people have passed themselves off as engineers in the U.K. To quote an old yesterday I couldn't spell engineer today I are one! A lot of harm was doing certainly during the 1970s when these people became established. By the gift of the gab or Buggins choice some of these people have managed to attain positions of authority such as team leaders, project managers etc. these people often pick the new engineers coming in to the industry. How effectively are these people interviewed? How many engineers especially in the contract game get a technical interview before they start. How many CAD operators are sat in front of a CAD machine and asked to do a few modifications to an existing drawing - I suspect very view.

Surrounding ourselves under a mountain of paper with a lot of chancers I believe we are seriously damaging engineering as a profession.

O.K. so the plumber has been cited as a case. This guy can't hide - he can either plumb or he can't.

In my opinion its time to grade engineers properly. Academic qualifications is a start but I'm not convinced the best. Hands on - see how the guy performs, look at how he reasons a problem out. Some of the best qualified people are hopeless engineers because they cannot get close to real problems.

Some engineers are under-rated because the system to assess their real ability is not in place. Chances are that the evaluation process would be implemented by some of the poor guys who led the charge themselves years and manaeged to escape before their true engineering abilities got found out.

Bitter and twisted - well yes I suppose I am. I get disappointed when I see a potentially good or interesting job destroyed or botched by incompetent numpties.

I am an electrical design engineer by a trade. I know what it took to get me where I am. Experience cannot be bought nor does it come in 2 years. Strangely I can also do pipes and plumbing stuff and that is not hard!

There are some good project engineers out there but what discipline are they? Do they need a discipline?

 

[jmw]

Oceanamber, your other thread (red white and blue) has pursuaded me to give up engineering and become an electrician.

Pretty soon I will be able to buy a football team and hobknob with Elton John, Mohamed El Fayad and that Russian geezer.
This is the license to print money!

JMW

http://www.viscoanalyser.com

Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[jmw]

Silly me, I forgot to mention Delia Smith, a Norwich Footie club director.... if you happen to like the school teacher type, and good cooking, you too should become an electrician.

JMW

http://www.viscoanalyser.com

Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[ScottyUK]

Hi oceanamber,

Buggins choice

numpties

Methinks you need to include a glossary for the broader readership!



------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

 

[oceanamber]

Looks as though JMW has seen the light and has decided to throw in the towel and become an electrician. Realise that as a cunning contractor I place a lot of the ads for plumbers and electricians at high rates. Guys are moving out of engineering to become tradesmen there by reducing the number of engineers in the pool. This reduction in manpower is directly proportional to the rate I can charge for my services. There is a saying about old and devious usually wins youthful enthusiam.

Take heart JMW because unless you are earth bonding Eltons gold taps a lot of electrician stuff such as putting up tray/rack or pulling cables on cold wet days is a bit miserable.

Any one know where I can buy cheap petrol for the Jag!

cheers

 

[jmw]

Commissioning (actually, riding shotgun on the commissioning engineer) an analyser in Siberia in the winter is no great shakes either.

I never understood why i always ended up in these places (Alberta, Siberia) in the dead of winter, or Burkina Fursau in the height of summer (don't even ask).

The oil fields in Alberta have a particular attraction in that they are miles from civilisation. Snow, unless you are an Inuit with an extensive vocabulary devoted to it, is snow where ever you are; it and minus 30degC temperatures are great equalisers.

Siberian refineries often have some good benefits, they may brew their own beer and have their own bakery and patiserie on site. In Alberta, there was a motel where we stayed and the only TV was in the restaurant and permanently tuned to ice hockey fights and we eat there or in the gas station.

I'm pretty sure Elton lives in better conditions and has a plentiful supply of booze.

You know, while one can take great pride in seeing a system you have designed from scratch work better than anyone expected, seeing one system save millions of dollars for the client each year while you worry about paying the mortgage or the wifes next trip to the shops, makes you wonder why engineers are treated so badly and why they put up with it.





JMW

http://www.viscoanalyser.com

Eng-Tips: Pro bono publico, by engineers, for engineers.

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[GregLocock]

"You know, while one can take great pride in seeing a system you have designed from scratch work better than anyone expected, seeing one system save millions of dollars for the client each year while you worry about paying the mortgage or the wifes next trip to the shops, makes you wonder why engineers are treated so badly and why they put up with it."

Because you/we know that when we create a multimillion dollar system that works as it should, it is 'ours' in a sense that few other professions can achieve.

That's why.



Cheers

Greg Locock