Job Advice Please 5

[AgeXVII]

So here is my predicament... I recently graduated in December 2011 and got hired at an Electrical Contracting business and it is a small business which I do not mind but they hired me as a project manager. Again not a big deal because they said they really wanted another EE on staff (there is only one other guy here that is a EE) so they could try to bid and take on more SCADA/PLC projects. I really like the engineering side of the job when I get to program PLC's and do wiring diagrams etc., but there has been basically zero training. If I have questions the other EE, who was here as an electrician for 7 or 8 years before getting his degree, says "that is what I need to figure out" or "you are the man for the job" instead of actually trying to help me figure out what I am doing. They did hand me a "student guide to estimating handbook" and said go for it and read that in my spare time to help figure out some of the ropes but I am finding that I could almost care less about the pre-bid meetings and estimating stuff.

I have been applying for other more design oriented jobs and even some software engineering positions but I am looking for some advice on A) what is a good way to go about asking for time off to go to an interview if one arises? (Another company contacted me to talk about a job and then called my references as well.) B) Is it true most engineering jobs are heading more toward project managers anyway and a better move would be to try to stick it out and learn what I can?

I do get some chances to use my engineering skills that I went to school for, but like I said making an excel spread sheet and trying to get suppliers to give me updated prices to come up with a bid just isn't my cup of tea...

 

[StevenHPerry]

A) Take a personal day off. You shouldn't need to tell anyone what you do on your time off. Make a practice of this whether it is going to be beach, going to an interview, or just playing hookie. They can infer what you did by your sun burn, but don't show back up at the office after a half day interview still in your suit & tie. If you do tell a white lie, make sure it's nothing anyone could verify or would want to verify.

B) Yes it is true that most engineers trend to management of some sort. Within 10 years of graduation, I doubt more than half of engineers are doing any engineering. It doesn't mean you have to go that way, though. Do what's right by you. Some engineers are wired to be technical wonks, some to be brown nosers, and others just to be greedy.

I've had a few good mentors, but the best mentorship I've received hasn't been technical. My best mentor kicked me in the pants and told me to go figure this or that out myself. You can get technical mentoring from eng-tips.com and amazon.com. It's probably more difficult to get good mentoring for the other 90% of your work.

At the current company, if you're the EE who will be designing the technical aspects of the jobs they hope to land, you should sell the current company on the fact that you need to learn how to do it competently beforehand. Winging it at bid time will lead to bad estimates and inaccurate schedules since you will be teaching yourself on the job if you win. The company's reputation will also suffer if you (individually and collectively) can't deliver. Better to spend a few thousand getting some specialized training. To a non-degreed boss you will have to explain that the education taught you more how to learn rather than how to actually do it. BSEE doesn't mean you took an honors-level vo-tech course on PLC and wiring diagrams.

But be prepared for him to be pretty pissed about that if that's a surprise to him.

- Steve Perry

http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevenhperry

This post is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. It is offered with the understanding that the author is not engaged in rendering engineering or other professional service. If you need help, get help, and PAY FOR IT.

 

[AgeXVII]

Well my other problem about the personal days is that they said when I got here you get 1 week the first year of vacation time then 2 weeks every year after and I am saving it for my wedding coming this October. Guess I forgot to mention that part so I was trying to work with/around that detail. I am getting married in October and the wedding is taking place down in Missouri, I am living/working in Wyoming so I will need at least a few of my days then. The owner and all of the people here seem really friendly and easy going so I don't think that getting that time will be any sort of a problem for my wedding but I don't want to push it by using vacation time up before then. There isn't really an easy way around that one other than maybe a "sick" day.

My other option is to just come clean and tell him that I like the people and I don't mind some of the work they have me doing but in the long run I don't see myself wanting to do estimating. But then I don't know how well that will blow over with keeping me on until I find another job so I was trying to avoid that.

Also yes I am one of the EE's who will be doing programming if we get it. They have sort of tested me on projects that we had gotten but we not going out for installation yet. One was just updating a PLC program so I got to see a base starting point and fix it while wiring it up and testing it then fixing the schematic/wiring diagrams. The other was a complete start of scratch PLC program and took me about a month working on it on and off not consistently for days or anything. It was a good thing to see how the program handled etc and teach myself but the other EE says he feels like he can program anything the company throws at him but he wouldn't want to bet the companies money on it. Unfortunately during that whole teaching myself process if I asked him a question he would just say figure it out and let's not make this an all week thing. They did say that after my 6 month review or if I decided I liked what I was doing and they liked my work etc and we talked not being on a review salary they would invest in the estimating software for me as well as a PLC training course or some other form of training but until then I am just winging it as you said.

 

[vandal06]

Would your company be ok with you taking the day off and just making up the hours over the weekend or during the following week?

One week of vacation seems awfully little, does that include sick time as well? Industry standard to me seems to be minimum of 2 weeks/year accrual plus 5 days of sick leave.

 

[AgeXVII]

I am not sure what they think about that making up time. I know sometimes they work on Saturdays just because. I work about 50-55 hours a week as it is now along with the other estimator/project managers and like I said they are really laid back. I took a day off to visit my family when they came to town and they told me to fill out a vacation request form so I did. I gave it to the boss/owner and he laughed and said "we don't give that here, there's no time off" then wrote rejected across the top and told me to take it to the other EE who is supposed to be supervising me. Again they all laughed some more and said ok just put it in the box so it gets filed.

Not sure what became of it, my pay check was a bit less than all of the others for that period but it might have just been the days in that pay period as well. I didn't look into it :/

It is a small vacation period to start. Not sure why they do that but it's a very small company and I am on a review 6 month period anyway to test the waters. I was more excited to have found a job that I didn't argue any of it when I signed on.

 

[vandal06]

Are you paid hourly or salary? I think working 50-55 hours consistently without extra compensation is a pretty big deal. Do the other engineers work the same kind of hours?

 

[AgeXVII]

Salaried, the guy who is "teaching" me comes in at about 0700 M-F and stays until "about 5:42." I try to stay pretty consistent with his schedule but I show up between 7 and 7:30 and I leave between 5 and 5:30 most days. Sometimes it is longer and I have left a couple of Fridays early (4:30). He is the only other Engineer here and the other 2 estimators here are the owners. They come in sometime between 6:30-7:30 in the morning and they leave between usually 5:30-7pm almost every day just depends what is going on as to what time they leave but it is usually around 6 I believe.

At this point I wish it was hourly!

 

[Jboggs]

Can you take some rough words given in kindness from an old fart who has been there and done that, and more?
You've been there less than 6 months! You have a LONG WAY to go and PLENTY of time to get there. Whether you realize this or not, this job is just a continuation of your education. And I don't mean just things technical. I mean learning how the world works and how you fit into it. You may think you know what you want but, believe me, you don't. In fact, you have no idea how much you really are learning right now. Yeah, there are parts of the job that are tedious, boring, not challenging, or even impossibly confusing. So what? That's life. You must look at every experience with the attitude of "What can I learn from this?" I've had some really bad bosses in my day, and some co-workers I wanted to shoot, and some mortal enemies that turned out to be life-long friends. I've worked for small family-owned companies and large publicly owned corporations. Manufacturers, consultants, and contractors. Product design, equipment design, facility design, professional services, even a large insurance company. All real learning has some pain attached. I would recommend that you make the commitment to stay there at least two years - as a MINIMUM. Your experience there will end up being of value to you later somewhere. Just be patient.

Find the folks who are willing to share their knowledge and wisdom, and cultivate those relationships. Learn from the others by their example (good or bad).

Here's another reason to just stay put - your life is already in for a MAJOR change! Why complicate it even more? Adding yet another stress factor at this time is not a good choice in my opinion.

I'm not saying you exemplify this, but I have seen it numerous times: fresh young green engineers get out of school with all kinds of dreams about where they want to go, what they want to do, how they want to live, and they want it right now. I mean after all they got a degree in four years. They should at least be a manager somewhere four years after that, right? No. Your degree was the price of admission to your real education. And the pain you are experiencing now is just the tuition. Hang in there. You will be fine.

 

[tz101]

I have normally tried to arrange interviews as late in the afternoon as possible, even done a few evening and very early morning interviews over the years. Don't let any company cajole you into thinking you owe them an explanation for taking off early if you need to. If the place cannot afford to allow you an hour or two here and there for personal business, then it sounds like thew wrong place to work anyway.

The tight job market has, unfortunately, put many company execs and owners in positions where they try to bully the employees. I don't fall for it.

Since you are salaried, you will not be out anything on your paycheck, just don't make a habit of it. I normally make a personal rule of a limit of 1-2 "personal time" leave early situations per month when in job hunting mode. Be mindful too, that the companies you are applying to need to be considerate as well. Don't let them push you into interview times you are uncomfortable with. I always ask if a Saturday interview is acceptable, and recommend you use this tactic as well.

End game is this: No matter what anybody tells you, you know if you are comfortable and happy where you are currently working. If you are unhappy and have given the place a fair shot, then it never hurts to look.

Best wishes in your job search.

TZ

 

[AgeXVII]

Good points you have there. I have done a few interviews like that where I took off a Friday and had to fly out for the interview, talked a little more with them on Saturday then came back Sunday morning. That is the unfortunate problem I have is that my fiance and I both would like to be closer to family. That means the jobs I am looking for are in the Florida/Alabama area and also a 24 hour drive away from where we are now.

The place I am working now, it varies on how I feel about it. Some days I really enjoy what I am doing and I have a good time trying to figure it out and get my tasks done. Other days I struggle, don't understand how I am supposed to just know what they want me to know or figure out and when I try to ask where I would find the information if it isn't given I get a response that just makes me not like it even more. I do not have the experience of being an electrician for 8 years prior to this job so when my supervisor tries to explain things he makes it seem like I should just know it already like he does/did.

That in mind, yes I am learning slowly and I know that no matter where I work I would/will probably have good and bad days that I enjoy the work and then have to do tedious tasks that I don't like but I shouldn't feel dumb for trying to ask how to figure something out or where I can find the information.

 

[tz101]

The way places yank your chain these days, I would have a hard time spending on airline fare to go to an interview, unless I had a really good feeling about the place. I cannot tell you the gasoline I have wasted driving out because some recruiter saw my resume and thought I would be a great fit, and then the company decided on another candidate or not to fill the position at all.

 

[AgeXVII]

Haha yeah I know how that goes. Fortunately I don't go unless they are paying for it. I just graduated, just moved etc so a plane ticket, car rental and hotel on my expense with about a weeks notice hasn't fit in the cards. Even if they give me the we will reimburse you talk I say I can't afford that at this time, that way if they really are interested they will figure out a way.

 

[StevenHPerry]

Interviewing 1000 miles away changes the situation. With only 5 days off per year and a wedding coming up, you're facing a difficult situation and some tough choices.

From your statements here, you aren't going to get another job across the country this year.

Suck it up until you do have vacation time. Life and marriage particularly is about sacrifice. Everyone has to shovel their fair share of ___.

Or quit and force yourself to find a job where you want to live. But don't expect paid time off for your wedding. You might be able to work a comp-time arrangement though. These kinds of things are questions worth asking AFTER they have made an offer. And if you're on charity, these are the kinds of questions not worth asking at all.

Though my neighbor is on government assistance and appears better off than me, fairly well paid engineer. Different topic...

- Steve Perry

http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevenhperry

This post is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. It is offered with the understanding that the author is not engaged in rendering engineering or other professional service. If you need help, get help, and PAY FOR IT.

 

[dvd]

There are a lot of people who live in places like Wyoming because of the recreational possibilities, and they work at far crappier jobs than yours just to be able to stay. Do you enjoy the outdoors? Is it worth it to stay there because of this? Does your wife-to-be want to live in Wyoming? Don't lose sight of your other priorities. A great job in an undesirable place has drawbacks, too.

 

[lacajun]

AgeXVII+, since you're working for an electrical contractor, estimating is important. Your customers will estimate the cost to complete a project to present to management. If your numbers aren't close enough to theirs, you won't be selected. Your customers will have to justify the project to management with a Return On Investment, ROI, that is enough to prompt them to fund the project. Without a decent return, it won't get funded unless it's a project that is simply the cost of remaining in business, i.e., environmental. Think about your work from the customer's perspective, too. Knowing the cost of projects is valuable but you won't begin to see that for a few more years or several.

Since you've not been aboard long, it may take the company some time to find SCADA/PLC projects. Projects don't fall from trees so you'll have to be patient. I know engineers who have never done system work because those projects were rare in their environment. Industry moves slowly, very slowly. It's the risk/reward thing and capital outlay thing for your customers.

Since they hired you to do SCADA/PLC work, you may want to research the industries that use them most and determine if that's where you want to be. Since you're looking for software engineering or design engineering, it seems you're in the wrong field as well as potentially the wrong job.

If I were you and I clearly am not, I would postpone the job search for another year and get through the wedding. In a year, I would begin a job search. Jumping around so early in your career will hurt you and it may establish a precedent you're not thinking about today.

Even though I worked with a lot of very experienced engineers right out of engineering school, they didn't know everything. There were a number of things I had to learn on my own. In those situations, you do the best you can and leave the rest to your Creator. Since I was a fresh graduate, I remembered theory they forgot before I was born. I helped them, where I could. Today, there are things I forgot before you were born and could use help from a young whipper snapper. ;-) In time, I learned enough to teach others. That's what I experienced but your experience may vary. Life has a progression and each decade has its own flavor. Your 20's is a time of learning.

Even today there are things I enjoy doing and things I don't enjoy doing. They all still have to be done. Learn to like the aspects you dislike. You'll find that even in family life and having a home. They don't take care of themselves. They require a lot of work and TLC. So don't be lazy about the things you dislike in life.

Rely on your vendors, too. They'll support you. There are more of them than there are of you, too. They see a lot more than you do from a host of customers across industries. The good ones will help you learn. The good ones will be eager to help you learn.

Often people don't realize their delivery is off with their words. I've made that mistake more than once. I've found that a gentle word or humor about a poor delivery works wonders to end demeaning comments. You will run across the occasional person, who is so hurt and damaged, no amount of trying will change their delivery. Also, electrical contractors can simply be a rougher crowd in contrast with the Silicon Valley type. Think about the people you're working with and try to gauge how to discuss or handle their attitudes towards you. More than once, I've had to remind people you don't learn everything in engineering school, I didn't have that experience, and I am not a KIA, Know It All.

Take an engineering job because it interests you not to live in a specific region of the US. You're going to spend a lot of time working so you should enjoy it.

I wish you and your fiancé all of God's best! You're in an exciting time of life with many new beginnings.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[AgeXVII]

Thanks for the tips and yes after reading these and another advice thread I agree I need to tough it out for at the very minimum a year unless something spectacular were to come up. My fiance has a nice graduate program job opportunity lined up here as well for 6months-a year before they would hire her on permanently so we decided to stay in this area for now and get some experience under our belts and then go from there.

She still would really like to move closer to either her family or my family but we are going to just see how this goes for now.

That being said however:
@lacajun, you said
"Since they hired you to do SCADA/PLC work, you may want to research the industries that use them most and determine if that's where you want to be. Since you're looking for software engineering or design engineering, it seems you're in the wrong field as well as potentially the wrong job."

were you referring to the field being wrong as in EE or the electrical contracting field? and wrong job is just referring to the project manager position I took correct?

Also I was snooping around and looked at your Quillin Engineering, LLC site and noticed the phone number was a Colorado number? Is that a picture of your office/ is it located in Colorado? Just curious.

Thanks again for the tips. I think it would also help me to as stated in some of the other advice threads ask periodically for updates of how I am doing or what I could do to make it better. My issue there is when I ask the other EE/Electrical doesn't want to sit down and help me or talk about it he seems to want to hand me something he has done for another project at another time and say there just look at that to get an idea.

 

[lacajun]

AgeXVII+, electrical sounds like the right fit for you but old manufacturing may not be. Old, heavy industry uses PLC/SCADA's more than high tech. My sister, also an EE, did software engineering on defense projects and never used anything of my world. Her world was all the C stuff and design. You seem to be in the wrong job right now, since you want to change for various reasons. Software engineering is a different world than PLC/SCADA work for industry. That's my limited view of things.

I am 20 miles North of Denver, CO. I currently work out of my house to get this thing running. I may make it and I may fail. I'm leaning more to the fail side now.

Don't belabor your EE's ways. Learn how to work with him. I worked with a programmer analyst for 4 years, who had programmed operating systems, process controls, and a lot of other stuff through CMU, Westinghouse, etc. I didn't have near his experience. Occasionally he would walk around to my cube and very, very casually say something or other about the job then move to brief chitchat and leave. I learned the hard way that was his way of telling me I had overlooked something. Gary is a great guy and very subtle in his communications. I eventually began to laugh openly with him about his way of communicating with me. We had some great times. I stay in touch with him and his wife to this day.

You'll work with all kinds of people. Learn how to work with them to the best of your ability. Don't expect miracles either. Remain realistic about working with people because some you'll never successfully work with. Those are ones most people cannot successfully work with.

Look at the work your EE provides and glean what you can. There is often a lot of repetition from project to project. If you can't glean anything from it, let him know. Or call a vendor and get some help. Or come to eng-tips for help. You have a lot of help around you to utilize. Don't force your EE into a mold he may not belong in.

I suspect your EE, even though he has experience as an electrician, is in learn mode, too. Being an electrician is not being the EE, if you get my drift. You may not be that far behind him on the learning curve. And, with a BSEE, you should be able to learn quite a few things on your own. As others have said, your education is just beginning. Enjoy it because you've picked a wonderful field to study. You'll never get too bored.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[AgeXVII]

Yeah, I really enjoy the new high tech side of things, programming in C, C++, Java etc I can do and I like it in doses but I wouldn't want to only do that all the time. PLC's I have only had to see/program a handful of times and they aren't bad. I like the thinking process that goes along with trying to get the code to work and it was easier for me to teach myself that then to understand if I am doing the estimating 100% correct or better yet to find out what I am missing in a project scope without someone else looking it over. That is to be expected that I won't get it right away and they aren't expecting me to/expecting a lot out of me until I understand the process more as well but I can't seem to get him to look over my stuff either.

That is cool that you are around Denver and I am sure something will pan out for you to help get the business going!

Also can I ask what kind of company your sister worked for that was doing the defense high tech stuff/software programming? Before taking this job I had applied for a few embedded software positions but the interview I did get to go to they weren't actually after an entry level engineer like they had originally posted for. They wanted someone who had lots of programming experience, programmed a TON in their free time and wouldn't require much if any training at all, so it didn't work out and they ended up re-posting the job requirements as 3-5 or 5-10 yrs experience.

 

[lacajun]

I can take small doses of programming. Like you, I enjoy the thinking behind the code more than coding per se.

Estimating is important and learning to read scopes accurately is important. Huge money is involved in some projects, which you'll see as your career progresses. Disputes over contractual obligations can be very interesting. Your EE may not oversee your work because he's overloaded, believes he's too busy, has confidence in your ability, isn't thinking about you, doesn't understand fully himself, doesn't understand how to manage/mentor people, or a combination of those things.

Like a previous poster said, you have a long way to go. Don't get in a rush. Your industry days will move much slower than your academic days. I remember the transition and it was an interesting one to make.

I reached an age where I finally understood the best thing for me to do in buggy to severely bad situations is to pray about them. It doesn't change the situation or others often but it does change me thus things change. I'm not trying to proselytize or evangelize you. It works. God does listen. He does answer prayer.

My sister and brother-in-law, also an EE, worked for Texas Instruments in Dallas, TX. The CEO died suddenly and the new guy focused TI in a different direction. He sold the defense stuff to Raytheon in Tucson, AZ.

I know some EEs who do embedded programming. They really enjoy it. I might be able to help you network but I can't make promises that anything will come of it.

Thank you for the encouragement. I'm sure something will work out somehow.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[AgeXVII]

Lacajun,

That would be great and much appreciated if you could help me with some networking! I would really like to get a better idea of what all embedded software engineers do so I can make more of an informed decision if that is a direction I would like to go. If nothing else came of it the information would be helpful!