Job Outsourcing 12

[bioengr82]

Greetings All. This topic came up on another thread and I thought it warranted it's own.

What can we as professionals/our profession do to curb the exporting of engineering jobs overseas. Does anyone have insight into its specific causes or is it all about the $. I know many other nations graduate more engineers annually and I've heard grumblings from people like the CEO of GE that this will be the downfall of the U.S. economy. He says that without more scientists and engineers the United States won't be as competitive. Do others feel this is true as well? How can we need more engineers in the States if we can't employ the current population? Are there any in this forum who seriously worry about their position being shipped overseas? Also, what are your experiences with those engineers who are from overseas and does anyone think a stricter enforcement of Professional Licensing would do anything to help.

So abstract food for thought. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

 

[zdas04]

Your last question first. I have seen both excellent and horrible engineers from every program I've ever had cause to look at. f=ma regardless of the language the terms are described in. Each university (and professor) focuses on different aspects of a topic, and each has a tendency to use a certain style of teaching. Students react individually to styles and emphisis. A student who comes out of Princeton as a mediocre engineer might have been pretty good had they been trained in New Delhi and vice versa. If there is a racial or cultural bias towards someone being a good or bad engineer, I've never seen evidence of it.

Licensing tends to be very gingoistic and will often disregard good experience from another country while honoring mediocre experience from the home country. If there is a problem, licensing is not the answer to it (it may very well be the answer to a different problem).

Back to your first question. The internet makes the information-world a very small place. A company that has a task that can be done with a lower total cost by one group vs. another group is irresponsible to use the higher cost group if all other things are indeed equal. The trick for U.S., U.K., Canadian, etc. engineers is to make certain that all other things are not equal. Know more about the company, the product, the market than anyone can possibly know from a half a world away. Be responsive, understand the nuances of the questions you are being asked. Find a niche that can't be filled from Taipei (expert witness, forensic engineering, facilities operation/maintenance come to mind) and your risk of beeing outsourced will diminish.

If you see your contribution as "generic engineering", then employeers/clients will also see it that way and price shop. If you upgrade your contribution to "essential" then your chance of being outsourced to overseas (or at all) becomes very small.

I'm an oil & gas facilities engineer. A few years ago all of my peers were being looked at as a luxury that couldn't be afforded at current product prices. My "peers" had largely spent careers sitting at their desks waiting for someone to bring them projects to engineer. There are hundreds of consulting firms serving oil & gas that were delighted to fill that niche -- a lot of folks who had poorly defined their role were on the streets. On the other hand the few of us who had gone in search of activities that needed us (we defined the problem, developed the solution, acquired funding, designed the project, and managed the construction) were considered essential to the operation and our jobs were never threatened.

My receipe for success is to know more, do more, teach more, learn more, and perform better than is expected. Never pass up a chance to learn a related discipline (as a facilities engineer I was unique in being a certified reserves estimator and an instructor in Gas Well Deliquification, those qualifications came through seeking out the opportunities).

Quit whining about being outsourced and start making it impossible to outsource you.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

http://www.muleshoe-eng.com

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

The harder I work, the luckier I seem

 

[insideman]

Outsource to me! USA!

 

[IRstuff]

It's very disingenuous to blame "outsourcing" as a problem. WE are the problem. WE outsource almost all our hard comsumables and even our food because we don't want to pay what it costs to get it in the US, or wherever. Cost-effectiveness applies at ALL levels of life, not just in business.

WE go to Walmart to buy cheap Chinese toys and electronics; that's outsourcing. WE did that 40 yrs ago with Japanese toys and electronics; and 20 yrs ago with Korean toys and electronics.

You might argue that it's Walmart that's causing the problem, since Walmart used to make a big point about "Made in the US" in their ads. But WE drove Walmart into being the largest retailer in the Solar System because we buy into their concept of continual price reductions that can only be achieved by outsouring.

Even our defense products are heavily outsourced because we can get cheaper weapon parts from elsewhere.

Now that WE are being treated like cheap Japanese toys; who's to blame?


TTFN

 

[bioengr82]

zdas04-

You make some excellent points. I agree that filling a position that is impossible to outsource is a good way to cover your own @$$. I have that luxury since I do water/wastewater and no one residing abroad will ever be the resident engineer for the treatment plants I'm involved with. However, I have friends that are in industry and manufacturing and are not as lucky. Please do not assume I am whining because I am concerned with topics relevant to our profession. I am interested in other's ideas and experiences...the purpose of this forum.

 

[SomptingGuy]

Here's a 180 view...

Get yourself a transfer to Prague (or some other "offshore" location. Your salary may seem like peanuts compared with previous jobs, but it'll buy more in the local shops.

 

[EddyC]

I don't really worry as much about offshoring as much as I worry about myself being replaced by an immigrant engineer. There are numerous immigrants pouring into my part of the USA. I currently work in a consulting firm. The rank-and-file design staff here are mostly immigrants. Their work is PE stamped by the senior managers. We are therefore in compliance with state law. Its pretty hard to argue with the "Low First Cost" style of procurement when you work in an industry that produces its immovable custom "product" only after they are hired. Its not like the client can test the building you designed and return it to you for a refund if it was engineered poorly.

 

[ivymike]

Get yourself a transfer to Prague (or some other "offshore" location. Your salary may seem like peanuts compared with previous jobs, but it'll buy more in the local shops.

... or set yourself up as the local (respected name) contact for companies looking to outsource work, and funnel that work to your associates in Prague. I'd guess that software development performed in Prague but directed from the UK would result in more rapid improvements to the software than could be achieved by local developers only, and would allow greater responsiveness to client needs. A similar approach would probably work for some parts of engineering design and analysis - a local consultancy can put together a quote which captures the needs of a local client, then direct the work remotely while it is performed in Prague, and prepare a report that is well written in the local tongue (passive voice, no doubt) to present to the client. This approach, of course, dramatically reduces the number of engineers needed in the UK/US (which is how we got on the subject, after all), but it probably works out pretty well for the ones who run the show.

 

[sms]

"How can we need more engineers in the States if we can't employ the current population?"

We can't? Are you sure? What is the basis of this statement? Have you looked at unemployment statistics for engineers? What kind of engieers?

 

[bioengr82]

Primarily when I graduated last year, only a quarter of students had a job offer. Over half couldn't even get an interview.

 

[sms]

Is this hard data, or are you estimating based on conversations with friends? What University? All degree programs or just some? I would be interested to see what your University's placment center would say their rate of engineering placement is. I bet they do not report a number of 25%.

If you look at the US Government's labor statistics it does not lead one to believe that there is a crisis of unemployment in the engineering business. The company I work for hired 40 new engineering grads this past May, so from my perspective things don't look too bad. I am just curious where the doom and gloom perspective on engineering is coming from.

BTW when I graduated I had no offers, I drove a truck the summer and sent out letters to companies every evening. I graduated in May and started my new career in September (that was 1984). There are always cycles when hiring volume is up and when it is down, but people with engineering degrees do get hired.

 

[Heckler]

A

for you SMS.

There are always cycles when hiring volume is up and when it is down, but people with engineering degrees do get hired.

I graduated in December 1994 and the job environment was slow. I had many interviews from Sept - Dec 1994 (HP, Honda, CalTrans & Quickie). I finally landed a job in Feb 96 and the rest is history. All of my friends from school had jobs before they graduated due to knowing people, or working internships.

 

[ctopher]

This has been a thorn for me the last couple years.
IMO, outsourcing comes from (from my experience):
1. Every year more business men/women and professionals coming here from other countries. They don't have a second thought about outsourcing.
2. More laziness here in USA at work.
3. Businesses forced to go elsewhere because of the rising cost's in the USA ... fuel, imports, booming various energy & environmental cost's, various insurance.
4. Greed.
... & more.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

 

[EddyC]

bioengr82,

When I graduated in 1984 most of the grads didn't have job offers either. Some took many months to get anything. So as you can see its nothing new. The top grads get picked up right away as do those with contacts. The rest struggle.

 

[bioengr82]

sms-

It is not my intent to get into a pissing match with you about labor statistics. Nor did I ever say that there was a crisis in engineering labor. Obviously I found a job with little problem. Simply, hearing calls for more engineering grads when I can look around the room and point at 1/2 my graduating class (university of missouri, and university of missouri-rolla) that were still unemployed made little sense to me.

 

[UcfSE]

Part of the problem finding a job period is the fact that you need experience to get a job and you need a job to get experience until you find someone looking for a fresh graduate. That's nothing new.

As long as people in the US value the bottom line more than purchasing domestic goods or service, there will be outsourcing. As long as it costs more to pay someone here to go to work and complain than it does to pay someone foreign to go to work and do a damn good job there will be outsourcing. It's hard to compete with someone who truly lives for his or her job, often very literally.

 

[sms]

No but you did say, "How can we need more engineers in the States if we can't employ the current population?" That is a pretty strong statement. All I am asking is that you supply some data that supports that statement. That's what engineers do, we analyze data. I'm not trying to get in a "pissing contest", I am simply asking for the data that you used to arrive at the conclusion that the US cannot employ the current population of engineers.

Now back to the rest of your starting post...

"What can we as professionals/our profession do to curb the exporting of engineering jobs overseas."

Probably very little, in my opinion it is time to get over it, accept that we have a world economy and that tasks will move to the places where it is cheapest and most efficient to do them, and get on with our lives.

"Does anyone have insight into its specific causes or is it all about the $."

It is always about dollars, why should it be any different with engineering.

"I know many other nations graduate more engineers annually and I've heard grumblings from people like the CEO of GE that this will be the downfall of the U.S. economy. He says that without more scientists and engineers the United States won't be as competitive."

You know that other nations graduate more engineers annually? Really? Where did you get that information? What data do you have to back that up?

I have a tendancy to agree with the CEO of GE. BTW he is in a pretty good position to know, he actually hires a lot of engineers. But the trend that I see is that the majority of young people are not interested in studying engineering. It's too hard. But I will also admit that this is a unscientific observation based on hanging out with teen age kids at our church youth group. I don't have hard facts to back it up.

"Do others feel this is true as well? How can we need more engineers in the States if we can't employ the current population?"

I think I have already beat this one up...but again, I like facts, feelings often lead you astray....

"Are there any in this forum who seriously worry about their position being shipped overseas? Also, what are your experiences with those engineers who are from overseas and does anyone think a stricter enforcement of Professional Licensing would do anything to help."

I'm not worried about my job being shipped overseas, and my experience with engineers from overseas has been generally positive. I think that requireing professional licensing is probably a disadvatage to the average American engineer. If I had to bet between the average Indian or Chinese engineer vs an average engineer schooled and raised in the US as to who could pass the PE exam, my money would not be on the American.

So there you go, if you are starting a database, you now have one data point...Please, please, don't try to extrapolte based on this one lonely point.

 

[bioengr82]

sms-

I appreciate your input, however, I didn't realize I'd need footnotes and a documented source list for everything I have ever read about the subject. I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything about the dynamics of the engineering economy, one of the reasons for starting this thread.

For your first question: I already told you what the basis of my opinion was from the first time you asked me on my orginal reply to your question 1 Aug 05 8:14 and again 1 Aug 05 12:18. If you are trying to point out that is not triple checked government funded study about engineering employement rates, point taken. "Feelings lead you astray" -- very Jedi of you.

Is the National Society of Professional Engineers crediable?

http://www.nspe.org/etweb/18-03overseas.asp

As for the relative graduation rates of US student to the rest of the world, I dunno. I read it some where. You can google as easily as I. This is the first one I found.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=585&e=1&u=/nm/20050708/sc_nm/economy_usa_science_dc

 

[PZas]

I'll bite.

As a recent graduate I can not firmly state the current status of engineering jobs for everyone. I agree that it is still difficult directly out of school to get a job but things seem to be changing here. I personally have had a job since well before my graduation (2+ years). Although, this may not be typical as I took 6 years in the middle of school to join the military.

I will say that most of the facts that you find online will be incorrect at the surface. Unfortunately when you look for the unemployment of "engineers" you will get statistics for those without degrees. Even IEEE speaks of "software engineers" in the link you give. They also urge for more studies and the waters are murky.

What I will say is that there are more jobs opening up every day. I recently checked some of the online job centers for a feel of the market and found no less than 4 jobs posted every day in engineering requiring a degree. usually the number was around 10...daily.

IMHO much of the problem is not in the job market but those trying to fill it. I hate to admit it but many of the engineers I went to school with were substandard to say the least. They did however get good grades. The education system has been so squeezed by funding and the politically correct system of having "Team" classes that individuals don't get the experience they need. I can honestly say that half of the graduates should not have that piece of paper.

Many of you may not believe it but almost 100% of engineering programs in the US will allow you to graduate with all failing test scores. Usually the tests in a class make up less than 50% of the grade. This allows those who are good at copying problems out of the book to get a B with a test average in the 60's....not the kind of people I want working with me.

Also the group classes promote the 80% of the work is done by 20% of the people attitude. I have heard many people brag that they "didn't have to do a thing and will still be getting an A because ...... did all the work and is really good at this stuff". I can't tell you how many times in my senior year I had to remind people what F=mA means....and don't get me started on the math.

So when you say there is a 7% unempolyment rate in engineers I say "that sucks". Because personally I believe it should be around 30%. Scary to think that 23% of the engineers out there are probably incompetant.

We will get beyond all this when people stop going into engineering as a stepping stone into management.

 

[bioengr82]

PZas-

that stuff about group class--dead on. deep fried solid gold. a star for you. Also, unemployment figures reflect those activly searching for a job, not all without one. And the thing about the nubmer including non-degreed engineers is a whole different topic I don't think you want to touch! LOL