Job Outsourcing 12

[bioengr82]

Greetings All. This topic came up on another thread and I thought it warranted it's own.

What can we as professionals/our profession do to curb the exporting of engineering jobs overseas. Does anyone have insight into its specific causes or is it all about the $. I know many other nations graduate more engineers annually and I've heard grumblings from people like the CEO of GE that this will be the downfall of the U.S. economy. He says that without more scientists and engineers the United States won't be as competitive. Do others feel this is true as well? How can we need more engineers in the States if we can't employ the current population? Are there any in this forum who seriously worry about their position being shipped overseas? Also, what are your experiences with those engineers who are from overseas and does anyone think a stricter enforcement of Professional Licensing would do anything to help.

So abstract food for thought. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

 

[sms]

Thank you bioengr82, that is exactly the kind of info I wanted to see. Does it support your original statements?

From your NSPE article we can conclude that off shoring is a problem for EE and Computer Engineers, and has resulted in a 7% unemployment rate for people in that profession. But that does not represent all engineering does it? I would be the first to agree that there are certain segments and specialties of engineering that are being impacted by offshoring. But that does not speak to all engineering, and what about the 93% that are still employed?

As for the second article, that just supports my gut feel that Americans are not entering engineering at the rate they used to, or even at the rate of some other countries. Now what does that say for the job prospects for experienced American engineers? It says that as the baby boom retires over the next 5 years or so, we will be in high demand, since there are not very many kids coming out of school, to fill the void. The only other way the void will be filled will be off shoring, or bringing in engineers from other countries.

But what happens if the Chinese and Indian economies really take off? There is in my opinion a good chance that all that engineering resource will get sucked up supporting their own economies, rather than proping up ours. That will just make US engineers even more in demand.

So all you doom sayers, get over your negativity, the future is so bright I gotta wear shades!

(How Jedi was that?)

 

[SomptingGuy]

A bit [OT] I know, but to reply to a specific statement:

PZas: "We will get beyond all this when people stop going into engineering as a stepping stone into management."

I did my engineering degree at Imperial College (London). By definition there were no graduates with anything other than science and engineering degrees there. However, our annual careers fair was normally swamped by the accountant/management consultant/law firms. Their argument being that engineering graduates were typically more literate and numerate than the rest, and could solve practical problems. I doubt very much that the students embarking on engineering courses see engineering as a "stepping stone into management". I think that the non-engineering firms see engineers as highly employable graduates.

 

[bioengr82]

sms-

So happy to please you. I feel as though you are going to grade my grammar next

 

[PZas]

SomptingGuy (Automotive)

I beg to differ. As a bit of a throw back to older day I had a professor (about 70 years old) who made everyone in a senior class on polymers state if they had a job or not and what field said job was in, or where they were looking.

More than 50% wanted to work outside of engineering. And this was Texas ATM one of the schools that has had almost a 100% employment rate since the 50's. I couldn't believe it as half the class stood there and told everyone they never wanted to use engineering after they recieved their deploma. They talked endlessly about how much they ahted the math and didn't appreciate the problems. They were upset about the level of detail you had to go to in order to see good results.

Those of us who actually were in it for engineering were quite disgusted as they were taking seats that could be used for people who would represent the profession. And with ATM turning away over 80% of the applicants I am sure they could find decent people to fill the seats.

 

[SomptingGuy]

PZas,

Maybe the climate has changed in the 15 years since I graduated? And maybe there's a geographical difference too between where I am and where you are? In my university house-share of 4 engineers, I am the only one who still practises. Although the other three had plans to practise when they signed up for the course, cash and status lured them away when they finished.

- Steve

 

[sms]

Bioengr82, be careful I just might. Especially if you wander into the Engineering language/grammer skills forum.

There have been many threads in these forums that start with an observation like "hey my uncle Joe got laid off due to off shoring" and then everyone posts doom and gloom statements about the end of engineering as we know it, with little or no constructive data or evidence to support that attitude.

If you do wish to pursue it, there is data out there, and right now it seems that there are conflicting conclusions. Several of the journals I read are bemoaning the coming crisis in hiring qualified technical workers as the baby boomers retire. Then there are articles in journals like the ASME and the NSPE, that warn that offshoring will make everyone unemployed. The reason for the conflicting conclusions is that engineering is not monolithic, when EE's have it good, ME's may have it bad. When automotive is in the dumps, aerospace might be doing great.

So what is the truth? The whole point of the exercise was to challenge your preconceived notions, rather than joining in the pity party.

 

[bioengr82]

You can at least agree that it is an issue facing engineering, good or bad. As I told zdas04, whining I am not (after carefully re-reading my posts). As I said, I am insulated from the topic. As I, and you just now pointed out, there is conflicting information about unemployment and the need for more graduating engineers, which made no sense to me resulting in your favorite line of mine "How can we need more engineers in the States if we can't employ the current population?". These journals you advise I pursue were the very sources of my confusing information (I apologize for not keeping better records) so refering me to them and demanding a biblography really did nothing to anwser my question for future reference

 

[HVAC68]

A different perspective -

Slowly, every country's economy is opening out and things are becoming more competitive everywhere, not just in the US. Perform or perish will be the new watchword in days to come, if not already. The boundaries of one's country is getting extended to the boundary of the world (a little exaggerated, though) and one can see people of many nationalities in most of the countries which are either developed or developing. Every developing country or under-developed country has been using lots and lots of things manufactured from a different country - yes, outsourced, since the developing countries were still not developed fully. Now, the roles are reversing. There's a lot of knowledge that has been shared over a period of time and it's time for the people in the developing countries to raise their standard or living, see better things and yes, in the process compete against the people from the developed countries, which was probably not happening in such a large scale.



HVAC68

 

[sms]

Here is an article from Power Magazine on the aging workforce crisis....

https://online.platts.com/PPS/P=m&e=1118939316071.2186335350813406440/

 

[bioengr82]

everyone has an opinion....

http://www.edn.com/article/CA529820.html

 

[sms]

Beautiful, that guy has it down. The argument is circular, because no one has bothered to dig deep enough to quantify the problem. As a result people like us have arguments based on an emotional response to what we see going on around us in our little bitty part of the engineering profession, while we forget that such a limited sample can't be extrapolated to the rest of engineering. He makes the point that shortage talk has been going on for decades, but I also know that oversupply panic has been going on for decades as well. I remember in college one year all the grads had multiple offers, The next year you were lucky to have one. But a year out all those people were employed as engineers.

The truth is no one knows if engineering in the US is going down the tubes, but I can say based on a rich history it is safe to bet that 20 years or even 100 years from now engineering will be alive and well in the USA.

Trade journals like Mechanical engineering don't help much either, almost every month there is some new take on the subject, with no real data, just opinions and impressions of writers that may not even be engineers, who generate articles with titles like "The End of ME." Amazing.

http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/dec04/features/sharethe/sharethe.html

http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/mar05/features/chinaroad/chinaroad.html

http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/may05/features/endofme/endofme.html

http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/june05/features/wherethe/wherethe.html

Again, I choose to be positive. The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

 

[14159]

I think the answer is that US engineers must provide a better service to the firm owners than international folks. Otherwise, they can't blame anyone but self, as a group of course.

Consider my observations.

One of my friends has run his own business for about 15 years and has done extremely well, growing it from just him to about 20 people in a line of work where 1 and 2-man shops are most common. His business benefited greatly over the last couple of years because he hired several highly-educated foreign guys rather than hire additional US engineers and detailers. The low required compensation is only a small part of the reason it's worked so well. The main reason is the better work ethic displayed by these fellows. He practically has to order them to take lunch breaks and keep the AC below 90 degrees. They work like mad and get the results back to him faster than he can get here. They also study a lot in their off-hours and improve very quickly. The idea of smoke breaks or missing work for non-emergencies seems ridiculous to these guys.

This is quite a contrast to what I saw at every job I've had. Few engineers are willing to really study and develop technical skills on their own time and most seem to think they're entitled to an ownership track even if they're working 43.5 hours/week. It gets worse when we start talking about drafters and their late arrivals, early departures, smoke breaks, playing on the internet, personal phone calls, and personal e-mails.

Think of it from an owner's perspective and the source of the issue and the answers are very clear.

DBD

 

[ajack1]

Most economys are based on cheap labour, in the UK that was through our old empire, in the USA it has been through immigration that has or is disappearing for both.

We all benefit from cheap prices for shoes, clothes, electrical goods etc because the manufacturing is outsourced, but we still want to earn top dollars.

Many years ago in the UK we had strong a manufacturing base but through bad work practices, complacency, labour problems it has largely disappeared.

In my field of work 30 years ago Japan was seen as a joke, only fit to produce novelty toys and junk. Now they produce some of the most reliable cars in the world and marques like Rolls Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin and Jaguar are in foreign hands and our main stream companies have all disappeared. Pretty much the same applies to ship building, motorcycles, machine tools, electrical goods, measuring equipment, in fact you name it, it applies.

With communications now what they are location is far less of a factor in many fields of engineering and many countries will prosper as their skill base improves.

So are we all doomed, no. Those that stay innovative and offer more will still grow, those that think they have a god given right to charge top dollar and offer a second rate service will not, simple as that IMO.

Anyone who thinks his or her job is not in danger, it probably is. Anyone who thinks it is in danger and acts in a positive way are probably much safer. I have no facts to back this up, it is just my view.

 

[matthewj]

It seems like the degree to which a job may be outsourced is related to how repetetive or mechanical the job tasks are. Tasks such as raw calculation and programming are much more easily outsourced than tasks like field work, project management and face-to-face communication.

 

[GregLocock]

"Tasks such as raw calculation and programming are much more easily outsourced than tasks like field work, project management and face-to-face communication."

I wouldn't bet on that (apart from the fieldwork). We run engineering programs around the world (India, China, USA and Germany) from Oz, using telephones, faxes and video links. Oh and the world wide porn browser network.





Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[EddyC]

DBDavis,

Let me offer you another perspective:

My current employer has quite a few foreign nationals in his employ. Many of these folks are challenged in a variety of ways when it comes to doing a good job (Linguistically, Culturally, Technologically, etc.). They do, however, work for less wages than USA born folks. Is it a wash? I don't know.

My current employer also treats his workers like a communist economy. You get very little additional reward for working hard. Most folks here have realized this and do just enough to keep their jobs. Why slave over your work when all you will get is 10% more pay than others who slack off and have a good time.

 

[MESC1]

quoted from SMS... "...I would be interested to see what your University's placment center would say their rate of engineering placement is. I bet they do not report a number of 25%."

This is a little off subject, but has anyone seen a university placement center with valid information about future employment or salaries?
No designer I know makes what the colleges are saying we are getting paid.
When my mother was in college she was told someone with a education degree would never be unemployed. Fifteen years later, she's never taught, our area is flooded with teachers.

-She and I are 4.0 students with highly coveted resumes. I can't imagine what the market looks like for those with less than stellar records.

In reference to out sourcing engineering. My company has recently hired a Latin American staff to help with our South American business. They all speak english, but obviously prefer their native tongue. It makes communication very difficult. I have to give these guys credit though. Most of them were educated in the US, and required to learn very difficult subjects taught in a language that was foreign to them. These guys are as smart as any of our American born engineers; they are also more dedicated. I say, if you can do the job, I don't care where you're from. If American's want their jobs, maybe they should start doing them right!

 

[bioengr82]

mesc1:

Our career center averaged the numbers reported by grads. I'm inclined to think those that got well paying jobs were more likely to advise the school, thus skewing the average.

 

[MESC1]

That's a good point, bioengr82. Still, that means the data is not accurate.

Thanks
SC

 

[14159]

From EddieC: "My current employer also treats his workers like a communist economy. You get very little additional reward for working hard. Most folks here have realized this and do just enough to keep their jobs. Why slave over your work when all you will get is 10% more pay than others who slack off and have a good time."

This would be a great thread all by itself! I feel your pain. Employer/employee relations makes for some incredibly complicated situations and strained relationships. At my last job, practically every person I knew was miserable, and our owners were good guys with good projects. I quit and came back to school. I work much harder and much longer hours now but I REALLLLY don't miss the whole employer/employee relationship thing. Overall, I'm happier. It takes a special attitude to work for somebody else effectively for years.

DBD