Junior engineer seeking wisdom 12

[thrice]

I'm a graduate engineer in Melbourne, Australia.
I've had something on my mind for a while now, and this seems like a good place to find some answers.
I have been working for about a year for a one man business. My boss is very hands on, spends about 10 hours a day at work, and is a qualified draftsman and commercial builder. We focus mainly on domestic/industrial work.

He is very detailed (in the sense of how things fit together) and has imparted that onto me. The thing is, he's not technically gifted in the design sense. He still uses working stress, which I assume is not allowed, and rarely can explain WHY he does things the way he does. A lot of his work is repetitive and he just goes with what works.

My question to the wise and experienced engineers reading this, I feel like I am gaining valuable situational experience with every job I do, but will it be possible for me to further develop my knowledge of the technical side I spoke of without guidance/someone to correct my misinterpretations? If so, any recommended textbooks/learning aids? Has anyone done so?

Another thing is that I have to draft all of my own work. Its frustrating but I have become fairly quick at it, and it does help at times with engineering. However, am I wasting my time?

Apart from what I asked above, if any other structural engineers in Australia could give me a glimpse of the things they work on day to day, I would be greatly appreciative.

Sorry for the long winded post, and thanks in advance.

 

[Ron]

thrice...I'm not in Australia; however, your situation is not unique to your locale.

You will be constrained in your professional development, having only one person with whom to interact on a technical level. While you are presumably getting some good experience, it is anecdotal in nature and doesn't necessarily port well beyond your present job.

I would look for better opportunities with a firm that has more engineers, particularly those a bit more senior than you. As for the working stress issue....it is just a method that requires that you pay attention to the procedures much in the same manner as any other method....moving to a limit state criterion is not that big of a deal....as for personal preference....I prefer working stress to limit state any day of the week....but I have to be able to do both.

 

[SLTA]

Thrice, if you think that is long-winded, you haven't met JMW yet

Like Ron, not in Australia, but I'd like to visit sometime. BUT, some worldwide advice - I wish I could draft better. I have my own company, just me, and I have to hand-draw my stuff because a) I can't afford AutoCAD and b) it's way faster than hiring a drafter. Sounds like you might have learned all you can from your boss - not being able to defend the why would never bode well should things end up in court (heaven forbid). When you're young, go try a bigger firm to get the multiple ideas and whys.

Good luck!

 

[patprimmer]

thrice.

Although it's not my area of expertise, I agree with all that is said above.

It sounds like you are quite young.

With the two step economy going on in Aus, if you are young and foot loose and fancy free, you might find an opportunity for some great experience in the mining regions of WA or Qld or even NT.

Regards
Pat
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[Forensic74]

Your boss should be able to know why he does things the way he does. If he really doesn't he shouldn't be practicing. I would flee before he uses one of his copy n' pastes in the wrong situation. But, yes you are limiting your professional growth by working for this guy. At your stage of growth, you need to have a mentor who can explain things. Plus, if you're only working on repetitive projects, you're probably not going get enough breadth to pass your exam easily.

 

[Hurricanes]

Thrice,

I'm in Queensland. Working stress, yeah, it's frowned upon. It is actually allowed, AS 3990 is a rehash of the old AS 1250 and deals with steel design using working stress. But is is mainly used by mechanical engineers checking sections of mechanical equipment; shiploaders, stackers etc. Structural engineers really should be designing with limit state design and AS 4100 (mech too in my opinion).

The structural engineers here work on a variety of industrial structures. Things ranging from shiploaders, pipe/vessel supports, conveyor towers, to temporary structures for mining camps, coal processing plant structures, wharf structures, cranes etc. The list goes on.

There is plenty of work up here, if you were willing to relocate to a smaller town like Gladstone, MacKay, Bowen, Blackwater or Townsville, you'd pick up a job pretty easily. I imagine it would be the same in WA.

 

[bigTomHanks]

One day.......you will look back at your time there and be happy that you had the opportunity to work with him. As long as he treats you well I say soak up as much as you can and when the time comes to move on you will know.

 

[SnTMan]

thrice, I am going to kind of agree w/ bigTomHanks here, don't be too quick to dismiss your boss. He may know more about why he does things the way he does than is apparent to you. I'll bet his eye tells him when something is not right, I'll further bet yours does not as yet, no offense intended.

The right questions phrased the right way may reveal more depth to his knowledge.

As for drafting your own work, as companies have become "leaner" (their word, not mine) it is more and more common to get rid of the designers, drafters, admins and forth and let the engineers do all that. Fact of modern life.

Stay, go, that's your decision, but while you're there get all you can get, and realize "knowledge" and "wisdom" are not the same things

Regards,

Mike

 

[jmw]

Slta....!



JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[Hurricanes]

I'm not so sure draughting would be the skill to focus on at this stage. In Australia it is very rare for engineers to do any draughting, especially in the structural world.

I would be more looking a developing your core skills, buy the Steel Designers Handbook by Gorenc Syam and Tinyou. Get to know AS4100 like the back of your hand. Learn a structural analysis program such as Space Gass or Staad.

Likewise, learn the wind code, hone your concrete skills, polish up on some geotech. Wind Loading of Structures by Holmes is another invaluable book.

 

[rmw]

While JMW and slta go kiss and make up, I will jump in and state that I was once that junior engineer working with a older engineer who reminds me of thrice's boss - except that he was an excellent engineer and quite skilled. He was not on the other hand much of an innovator and it was the time when electronic controls were pushing out pneumatics while he knew a heck of a lot about pneumatics.

Of course I was the "teenager" verson of a young Engineer, I knew it all and to me he was a bumbling old buffon. Well, now I am about the age he was at the time he took me on, and I now work with a lot of younger engineers that are quite smart but just inexperienced. If he were still alive I'd go ask him to forgive me. I suppose that makes me the bumbling old buffon.

Thrice, SnTMan and Hurricanes have given you good advice I think. Learn what he has to teach you while digging in to all the structural you can on your own so you can enhance your knowledge on your own. When the time is right you will know what to do - either buy him out or move on. I bought the old man out and, well the rest is history. I really appreciate what he did for me and where I work now, it puts me in excellent stead. Much of what gives me value now to my current organization was taught to me by him or by the opportunities working with him gave to me.

Now I'm hiding in the corner waiting for slta's commentary about the length of my post. :<)

rmw

 

[zdas04]

In my industry it is common for engineers to have Production Technologists to assemble data, generate plots, generate maps, do drafting, generally do the repetitive tasks that engineers need done. I had a Tech for a couple of years and found that I spent more time explaining what I wanted done than it would have taken to just do it. My boss said that the Tech would get better and that I would eventually see a real benefit to having the Tech do the repetitive tasks. I never did see the benefit. I type about 60 words a minute, he typed 15. I've been doing AutoCAD stuff since the first releases, he never did get it. I used to teach database theory, he thought Access was magic and did all his work in Excel. Every task I gave him, I had to spend more time checking that it would have taken me to do my way the first time (it really frustrated me to have to dump his 10,000 line Excel sheet into a database to find that while he was typing it in he switched back and forth between mole percent and mole fraction at random, and that the pretty graphs that he generated meant nothing at all, when I got that fixed the conclusion that the data supported looked considerably different).

Bottom line of this long-winded post is that I think many engineers use draftsmen, admins, and technologists to hide the fact that they have no clue how to do the mechanical, repetitive parts of their job. I think we should all be proficient in the donkey work before we are ever allowed to pass it off. Too many of us pass it off because we don't know how to do it, so how do we know the support staff is doing it right. I'll keep doing my own drafting thank you.

David

 

[MikeHalloran]

In days of yore, I could keep three good designers occupied, and they in turn could each keep three detailers busy.

Nowadays, nobody will hire a staff of ten to do the work that I can demonstrably do all by myself.

... not at the same speed, however.

CAD greatly speeds revisions and derivative drawings, e.g. new parts that are just like older parts, but different in some way. ... but CAD is still slower than spreading lead where there are no old designs to repurpose.

Neater, yes, but not faster. I used to do working layouts holding three different pencils in my right hand, so I didn't have to waste time picking them up and putting them down. That was before the arthritis set in.

The worst part of the new way, though, is that when you're peering through that tiny electronic window at your glorious creation, it's very, very difficult to 'step back' and keep track of the overall picture. You get so engrossed in doing a proper drawing that you forget to ask if you're drawing the proper thing.

... Oh. Where was I going with this?

Uh, thrice, whether you stay or go, ... while you're there, suck up whatever knowledge and develop and enhance whatever skill you can. Some time in the future, you will need some part of it. Unfortunately, right now, no one, especially not you, knows which part you will need.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[rowingengineer]

day to day, I never have the same day twice, but for instance in the last week, I have preliminary designed a multistory building, set out a rising main for a pump station, spent time with three grad engineers teaching the standards, got bored writing a report on some insulation that had been wet for a period, design a culvert crossing for a hull road and pavement and finally played with a few portal frame sheds.

My first boss was a working stress engineer, I became proficient in both. strangely this helped when it comes to FEA and higher order analysis.

I owe most of my success in putting together a good design to my first boss, never underestimate the old guy.

http://www.nceng.com.au/

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

 

[IRstuff]

"he just goes with what works"

That's a very useful, cultivatable, skill, all by itself. Can you do that?

I recall that we once were on the verge of committing to a fixture design, but it needed to be approved by the customer's SME. His name was spoken of in awe, and when he finally arrived, he looked at our design for about 30 seconds, and said, "Oh, there's going to be a resonance around 30 Hz, and you'll need to beef that up." Sure enough, our engineers finally go around to doing the FEA, and the resonance was at about 33 Hz. I don't know if he was doing FEA in his head, or whether he had just simply seen so many designs that it became a second nature. That's the skill and ability that comes from years of experience.

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[MacGyverS2000]

IR,

Can you look at an antenna length and have a good idea of it's quarter wavelength? I imagine similar properties are at work here (to a stronger degree, of course). Looking at a weighted cross-beam and knowing the weight and distance, some quick head calcs can give you an idea of what it would resonate at, I would imagine. But I've never tried it myself, so take it with a large grain of salt...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[jmw]

There is an issue here with "man and boy" attitudes.
I have witnessed many examples of where old guys don't like change even where change was necessary. They think that the way they did all their lives, and their dad before them, is the only way to do it.
In one company management waited for a guy to retire before putting in hand changes because they knew they would have problems with the "man and boy" employee.
Some designers seem to morph into "Guardians of the sacred form" and this closes minds to new ideas.
Learn but be open to other ideas.
Age and experience will let you pick and choose.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[Latexman]

My standard response to Junior Engineers that are getting on my nerves is, "I have underwear older than you". They usually leave after that.

Good luck,
Latexman

 

[SNORGY]

Well, Latexman...

That post was brief.

So to speak.

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[patprimmer]

Yes

Regards
Pat
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