Junior Engineer Woes 8

[anominal]

I have two years of job experience with the same employer, one in the field and one in the design office. This is my first full-time job after college.

In the design office I've primarily been a draftsman. The majority of my time has been spent cleaning up CAD files created by ill-trained, less computer savvy, senior level engineers. I've gotten very good at it...

It's grunt work. I don't want to specialize in correcting other peoples CAD mistakes, yet there seems to be no end in sight. I've put up with it for a year. Before I start seeking other employment opportunities I'd like to know if anyone else has been in the same boat.

Perhaps I'm just another plebe from generation whine, living in the age of entitlement.

 

[berkshire]

Apsix
You are right I was reading "ill trained" in a negative way.
It gave a connotation of being taught by somebody who did not know what they were doing.
Upon reading your comment I realize that "self taught" also falls straight into that category.
B.E.

 

[chris9]

In my experience it is easier to change jobs to get the right kind of skills you need than to try to pursuade your current employer that you should be doing a job that you wasn't hired for. I started out as a draughtsman and relocated several times to get the experience that I wanted.

Chris

http://www.value-design-consulting.co.uk

 

[macmet]

I agree with those that say drafting skills are important. Although from Canada, I am able to draft and draw things (jk, lots of Canadians can draw). I find it helps me think when I do design or evaluate something. I took it in high school and university, and although the university course was weak, the high school one was great and I'm glad I took it.

When I started my recent job, I asked for CAD, and it was apparently a mindblowing question. I was told we already had a guy that could draw.

I ended up with an AutoCAD viewer, which although isn't all I need, is better than nothing.

 

[CompositeKid]

I didn't enjoy my first year or two in industry very much as it was mainly data analysis of material samples and was incredibly dull but I appreciated that this was my bedding in time..

I needed to prove my drive, commitment and knowledge to a close-knit team of highly capable engineers from many different disciplines so I kept my head down, chin up and treated every task, no matter how menial, as if it was the most important job ever done.

This attitude was noticed by my line management and now, 8 years later I am working in a research team with a substantial budget and I feel I am a valued member of the team.

Everytime a graduate comes in he/she is given the data analysis/processing tasks I used to do and I see myself there grinding out the figures but I saw something else that everyone should be aware of upon starting that first job. My management team watch the new kids constantly to determine one thing.. ATTITUDE.!! If you come in, grind the work out and stay positive, enthusiastic and committed the promotion is there to be had. If you come in and sit at your desk with a face like a pitbull eating a bee don't expect to be staying there long or gaining any respect or promotion.

Engineering is a dynamic industry where constant change is a given. An ability to stay creative, commited, conscientious, enthusiastic and HAPPY even when doing the dullest of jobs will be noticed and rewarded or the company will lose you... and they know it..

Please don't take this as a personal sleight but if after two years your company has not promoted you or even discussed your career prospects its maybe time to use some reflective practice to see if it is you or them that is the problem.




If it aint broke, break it, take it apart and make it better.. Thats engineering

 

[anominal]

I specifically resent the comment about omniscience. I've known everything for at least a year now.

Thank you to everyone else.

I postponed running up on my boss and risking faux pas in favor of discussing it at my yearly review. That should be plenty of time to mull it over.

 

[FREEDOM7]

apsix

by proof is statistics and recent articles. There are many more for many industrialized nations.

http://www2.journalnow.com/content/2008/oct/31/more-people-working-past-retirement-age/

http://www.quintcareers.com/working_beyond_retirement.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...e-to-be-scrapped-says-Dame-Joan-Bakewell.html

Excuses are used "I want to work". How many have said on their death beds "I wish I could have spent more time at the office." People's main regrets is not spending time with loved ones. That's what people really want to do, not work.

Also, I do not resent work. For now it bring in income while I build my business on the side, with my wife and family. I resent a system that didn't teach me how to do that earlier in life.

Anominal
For now, good call. Learn all you can, and do all you can. Approach your boss with a positive attitude. Rehearse your questions and concerns and learn to state them in a positive way. "Your attitude will determine your altitude."

 

[ash060]

I know that for myself anytime that I am drafting I can't really be designing.

I have to run the numbers to design the beam, and while running the numbers I can't draw the beam in AutoCAD.

It does not seem efficient to design a beam, draw it and design the next beam, but to design all the beams give the designs to a drafter to draw and while he is drawing I can design all the columns. Otherwise, I have to wait to design the columns until I finished drawing the beams.

 

[weab]

anominal,

I assume you are in the US. In my opinion, your position is not typical though not unheard of. Though drafting is important in engineering, that is what drafters/designers are for, not engineers. I give my sketches, or sometimes just my thoughts, to a good designer. As an engineer, it helps to know drafting standards though, but it sounds like you have 0 years experience toward your PE.

Someone else offered a prediction, so I'll offer mine. You will eventually leave where you are at. I'm guessing it is a small place with less than 25 employees in an office off the beaten path. You will realize this whole other engineering world and the excitement (yeah, I like my job) of actually sizing steel and concrete. You will look back and wonder how you ever ended up at that sweatshop/drag on my career/(fill in the blank).

I have worked for 6 different places in my career. I have heard of places like yours, but fortunately never worked in any. We would have someone like you checking calcs. That gets mind numbing itself, but it is ENGINEERING. There are ways to pay your dues that involve what you went to college for.

There is something better out there. When you are ready, choose carefully and ask the right questions, not just what's the salary. Good Luck!

 

[IRstuff]

We have no drafters, only senior engineers and junior engineers, and that's been true at the last 4 out of 5 companies I worked for. The only company that was different was a semiconductor company, and the handoff was for the physical layout of the chip, which was different than the electrical circuit design, so it made sense. The CAD layout people were more like artists than engineers.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[Waidesworld]

I think I am seeing an argument here about the necessity of drafting knowledge before aspiring to have a word other than junior before engineer on your business card.

What I read from the OP was the following
"I am in my first job after college and I am doing grunt work which I think that after one year, I should have moved on"

I see this as the manure flowing downhill scenario. What I don't see is if there are other junior engineers there and what they are doing. Some jobs HAVE to be done and it usually falls on the new guy or the lowest qualified guy. The upper management equation is that the cheapest labor gets the grunt work.

Because of the economy the company may not be growing as quickly so you may find yourself mired in this position for a lot longer than you think. But in time you'll look back.

Many of us here didn't have forums where we could ask questions like this. We took what our bosses gave is at the start and ran with it. It was a boost in our confidence when we finally got a piece of a project or even the whole project itself, but I can guarantee you it wasn't in our second week on the job.

I have learned so much "engineering" that really isn't necessary for my current role, but that's the beauty of this career. Unlike the bean-counters of the world, you can have five completely different days every week. And everything you learn will help you in some way down the road.

Take this current "grunt work" and learn from it. You may have something learned to bring to your next position, or company.

drawn to design, designed to draw

 

[anominal]

Take this current "grunt work" and learn from it

I'm learning industry from it, but how many of these skills will be transferable? Whether or not it is engineering experience is debatable, and it may not help abit when sitting for my P.E. This isn't me turning my nose up at grunt work, it's looking out for my best interests. If I'm being outright slighted... I'll go somewhere else. The overwhelming response has been:

"You may be being taken advantage of... a little. But this is common. There are still learning opportunities. Be smartly proactive about your advancement"

 

[brandoncdg]

But if you can't efficiently draft how can you gauge the drafter's time you are giving work to? This was a huge dilemma at one of my jobs as the owner constantly yelled at everyone for taking forever to do something. I then explained exactly how long it took for each item then added them up, and he stopped yelling at me. I guess the others didn't think of doing this?

I have worked with other structurals in the same office on civil projects and they generally drafted their designs pretty quick and gave the simple tasks to drafters to finish up.

I speak mainly coming from a civil/grading background as looking at a plan, sketching a basic design and drafting/designing straight into the computer is way faster than anything else I have seen. And goodluck designing a retaining wall and having a drafter draw up a retaining wall profile. This is probably not the case for other disciplines as calcs are more important up front.

What kind of structural work are you doing?? Either way, realize you have to pay your dues before you can start designing and/or leading a project

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading

http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com

http://www.civildevelopmentgroup.com/blog

 

[Waidesworld]

In my early days I sometimes asked myself, "Am I doing engineering work right now?" and there's no real answer. Sometimes during this "grunt" period you build relationships with others and learn how to deal with certain individuals. This are not essential engineering skills, but they ARE skills that you will need to advance in your company or any company for that matter.

drawn to design, designed to draw

 

[TheTick]

Besides drafting, you are in a position to see the results of many engineers' work. You could spend some mental energy evaluating the work you are given or even discussing it with the senior engineers (who are senior because they have been doing this much longer). You can observe a lot just by watching. You could learn even more if you get tem talking.

...or

...you can continue as you are.

 

[anominal]

Continue as I am?

 

[anominal]

Sorry Tick, I interpreted that as being an insinuation that I was just mindlessly going about my work without attempting to take anything from it.

I do try to engage my betters and learn from example. New guy on the scene asking questions can elicit various responses; some people react better to questions than others. It's a balancing act knowing when to pursue what you don't know and when to shut up and just do the work. There should come a point when I'm ready to take on greater responsibilities. This thread and my own personal barometer suggest that I should be gently prodding my manager for different kinds of work; I don't know everything about what I'm doing right now, but I have a firm foundation in it. I may not want to know much more than I have to.

If in fact this is all that is in store for me at this company, I need to get OUT. Paying my dues? Ok. Learning valuable skills? I'll buy it. Endangering future opportunities for the sake of keeping status quo? Risking being pigeon holed? Hell no.

I have a feeling my super will be responsive.

 

[TheTick]

Two years isn't a long time, unless it's your first two years. Things are probably progressing at a healthy pace, but slower than your patience or desire.

Desire is good. If you are not driven from inside, there's no use kicking the outside.

Keep in mind that not much is really happening for anybody. The economy is soft, and available opportunities will reflect that. People are staying in jobs they normally wouldn't keep. Hiring and expansion is slow, and growth and promotions are slow too. Personally, I have seen the market value of my core skills drop significantly.

Start to worry if the next hire is senior and you have one more chin to wipe.

 

[spongebob007]

I have junior engineers working under me and I am also responsible for mentoring our summer interns. While I am sure my employer expects me to tow the company line, off the record I am very honest with my advice for the junior guys, and one thing I stress is to consider not spending too much time at your first job right out of school. How can you figure out what you like and what you really want to do if you don’t actually go and do it? I also feel that the best way to get a promotion, additional responsibilities, and most importantly, more money, is by changing jobs. It is very easy to get pigeonholed. If you were the summer intern and you have been hired now that you have your degree, guess what? Most of the folks in the office are still going to think of you as the summer intern. I once worked with a guy who was a lab tech that got his engineering degree at night school. Guess what? Even though he had his degree he was still treated like he was just a lab tech. He had to leave the company after being there for 15 years in order to get to do real engineering work.

I will also second what was mentioned about attitude earlier. I make no bones about the fact that the tasks I assign to the new guys are crap work that I don’t want to do, but that somebody has to do them. I tell them to think of these assignments as a test, and they are being “graded” on their ability to get the tasks done correctly, with minimal guidance, on time, and all the while having a good attitude. I remind them that successful completion of this “test” will lead to them being assigned bigger, more interesting tasks, and that eventually they can be responsible for entire projects. We had one kid right out of school that had an attitude problem. He thought the work I was assigning him was beneath him, and while he never came right out and said it, it was plainly obvious in his behavior. He really screwed himself because since he thought these menial tasks were beneath him and he never really put in the effort to learn to do them correctly. So not only did his attitude stink, but most of the tasks he was assigned were done wrong. He is no longer with us, and frankly I was glad to see him shown the door.

I will add a final bit of advice: Before deciding if you want to try and get more responsibility and interesting work at your current employer, or find a new job, you need to take a long hard look at the structure of your existing company. Is there a career path at your current employer? Does advancement depend on somebody else leaving or retiring? Keep in mind that if you work for a very small firm, this might be it. Ten years from now you will still be doing the same tasks you are doing today and your only chance to move up is if someone above you leaves and you can fill their position. This was the negative side I saw to the only small company I worked for. There was really no interesting work going on and little room for advancement. So I left, which gets me back to what I said in the first paragraph about trying different things. My first job out of school was for a large defense contractor. I didn’t like being just a number. My next job was the total opposite, I was one of only five engineers in the entire company and I saw no future, so next move was to more of a medium sized company that had an engineering department of about 50 people. This is where I found that I enjoy a medium sized company because they tend to have the career opportunities of a big organization, but they are small enough that you can be more than just a number.

 

[weab]

spongebob,

Regarding your last paragraph - AMEN! You nailed it about the company size (and my work history also). I tell the new engineers that it's a bad thing that they started working where I work because eventually they are going to get the idea to go somewhere else just to find that things are better here.

At the consulting firm that I work for, I will always get to do some actual design, and I love that. I do get the opportunity to get progressively greater responsibilities and job titles. I would recommend companies of, I'd say, 75-250 people.

But the small firm I worked for was a great opportunity for me for several years. I learned a lot due to a (forced) close relationship with an incredibly talented engineer who, if I had one, I'd call my mentor. Forced only because there were only 3-6 engineers at one time. I got some good experience, but in retrospect it could never have been permanent.

 

[KENAT]

Interesting, I actually had better career development possibilities at my previous small company (at least small engineering dept) than my current larger one.

I know we like to make these sweeping generalizations about company size but I think there's still quite a bit of variation even amongst similar sized companies.

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