JUST CURIOUS 15

[nifez]

Just a quick question about job prospects in ur respective areas.
As a newly graduated engineer from N.Ireland, i had every intention of moving to Canada (Got some family there, always here wonderful things about it), however after reading through some of these posts it seems Canada is NOT the place to be for engineers, in terms of having a succesful career.
As i am still young i feel decisions like this will greatly influence my future(if any) in engineering.
Job prospects for graduating engineers in N.Ireland are at best poor.(what with the guy who fixes the television being an electrical engineer!!)
These were my reasons for wanting to move in the first place, and im still keen to leave this country.
So i was just wandering wot working conditions, salaries, job prospects etc, for engineers are like where ur from?

 

[QCE]

It will be interesting to hear how Nifez fairs!

PS Even when we post on monster.com we get very few Ontario applicants.

If new grads in Canada want a job bad enough just show up in northern Alberta with a resume and you will be working within the week.

Quit serving coffee in Toronto and go get a job. Hiding in your parents basement, mass applying for jobs on the internet won't get you very far if you are a new grad.

 

[Bellatrix]

I agree with Moltenmetal. The situation is pretty much the same throughout Canada. It took me several months before I landed my job, and I had pretty much exhausted all of my engineering contacts. At least they were helpful when it came to even getting an interview. So many of my friends have not even had a single interview since graduation. Believe me, I have sent resumes to Alberta, B.C., and even Quebec, but the outcome was pretty much the same. No experience, no job. Why would anybody take a chance with a new grad when they can select from thousands of experienced, unemployed Nortel elec/comp engineers?

 

[makeup]

A reason may be that companys today look for fast returns and the quick buck. Training is a relatively long term investment and nobody whats to own that type of commitment. How many of us can say that you will be in the same job in 5 years time. Well, I came from the black trades and it took a 4.5 year apprenticeship just to get me to a skilled standard. It tool a lot of skilled time to get me there and that skilled time costs and is an opportunity lost.

 

[QCE]

I hear this all the time:

"The job situation is terrible it took me 6 whole monthes to find a job."

So what is the problem. Once you have a job you are usually doing alright. For the next job if you get laid off you will have more experience and contacts.

 

[MadMango]

The main problem is many companies do not see you as an asset, only a comodity.

[green]"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."[/green]
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[CRG]

No one is irreplaceable in the work force. If they were, they could command any compensation they desired for their work. As such, I would expect management to identify those who are the most difficult to replace and structure their business to minimize the impact when they leave. No one wants to be held hostage by a key employee. Hence, we are all either a commodity or destine to become a commodity in the work force. It just comes with the territory when working for someone.

I have no problem being viewed as a commodity in the workplace. I am thankful that my wife does not hold a similar view.

 

[bedstead]

I live in Northern BC and it is currently -30 degrees C.
There are many job oppurtunities in BC for engineers.
Try

http://www.apeg.bc.ca

(Assocition Of Professional Engineers & Geoscientists)
and check out there employment postings

Cheers and good luck

 

[Bellatrix]

To QCE:

"So what is the problem. Once you have a job you are usually doing alright."

I don't have a problem. I am very grateful that I have a job. I just wanted to give Nifez a more realistic opinion on how we new grads are faring when it comes to competing for employment opportunities. Check out the B.Eng forum at

http://www.hireanewgrad.com

. You'll see that there are many engineering graduates who are in the same boat. What I'm trying to say is, as a new grad, it's not impossible to find a job. However, you must be prepared to persuade your interviewers that you are equally qualified when they are looking for someone with years of experience. It's not easy when you're told you do not have enough experience; they are already insinuating that you won't be getting the job. Every where you go, it's generally the same story. Some companies do not even consider summer engineering work and engineering co-op as real work experience. You'd have to be in a new grad's position in today's society to truly comprehend what we are going through.

 

[moltenmetal]

QCE: have a look at

http://www.capeinfo.ca

and you'll see that of 600 recent engineering immigrants surveyed, only about 20% of them had engineering jobs and only about 50% had jobs of any kind.

I've met enough of these people to know that if they had an opportunity to work as engineers they'd jump at it, regardless where in Canada it was.

Why is it then that they're not being scooped up by these companies searching for workers to settle in northern Alberta and northern BC? Betcha it's because these firms won't even consider most of these immigrants for these positions. And why not? Because they don't need to- they get people like a colleague of mine if they wait a bit. He's a chemical engineer with at least 15 years of Canadian experience, who had a job in the mining/metallurgical business (you know, the one someone here posted as being on some kind of a major hiring binge...), and he had no success finding work suitable to his skills and experience in Ontario about a year ago. He's working in northern Alberta now.

You can see why the recent wave of immigrants is mad as hell here- they really feel excluded from the workforce. But this kind of "exclusion" didn't happen in the '60s and '70s during the last major wave of engineering immigration- those people were snapped up because there actually WAS an engineering shortage in Canada at the time. Firms HAD to consider immigrants or new grads if they wanted positions filled because that was their only choice. Training of recent grads and acclimatization/integration of recent immigrants was considered a cost of doing business.

One suggestion: if you're looking for engineers from Ontario, forget about Monster.ca- try the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers career centre at

http://www.ospe.on.ca

. There are about 4,000 engineers signed up with the career centre and only about 60 jobs rotating through at any one time.

 

[Bellatrix]

Also, check out this ad from an Ottawa Career Fair.

http://www.newspaperjobfairs.com/OttawaTechFlyerDec/

It states:

"A premier job fair event for EXPERIENCED ENGINEERS ONLY"

"Prescreening to eliminate non-qualified and entry level candidates"

OUCH!!!

 

[makeup]

Its the same here in the UK, my Institute has a few 1000 members and a job board that has six jobs adevertised.

 

[epoisses]

That's 6 opportunities! 1 is all you need
:-D

 

[QCE]

It will be interesting to hear how Nifez fairs!

Makeup makes a perfect point for you Nifez. Makeup says that the job situation in the UK is dreadful and yet myself and 2 of my friends showed up in England and had jobs within a month. Come on over Nifez. Worst cause - you have a pint and go home.

 

[makeup]

Well QCE you and your mates must be exceptional. Here are two letters posted on my Institutes website in response to: is it time to give up on engineering:

Letter 1

Is it time to quit engineering?


I worked for Menvier Electronics for 15 years as an Electronic Production Engineer. Cooper Industries of the USA took it over, shut it down, moved production to China.


Worked for TSS (UK) for exactly a year. Vosper Thorneycroft shut it down. Worked for Staveley NDT for one month. Sacked, no reason given. 5 months unemployed.


Worked for Comtrol Europe for 18 months. At my appraisal 2 weeks ago told I was “superb” and the company was very lucky to have me. Yesterday the American owner came over, made most of the workforce redundant on the spot. It will now be a sales office only.


I am sick and tired of this continual process. All I want is to do a good job and earn a salary to support my family. Although I love engineering I am now seriously wondering about moving to other areas of employment. But with no experience other than engineering I would be lucky to get the £25,000 I got at Comtrol.


Has anyone reading this successfully moved to a different career?

Letter 2:John;


Yes, I did move out of engineering many years ago, mainly because of a lack of work at the time. I was lucky enough to obtain a position with a retail company who put me into its trainee manager program. A year later I was a store manager.


I worked at this for about two years, basically running my own store, ordering goods, staff and stock control, cash flow and wages, etc, etc. I learned a lot about business operations in general and working with people, that was very helpful later on.


I left that job because I was enticed back to engineering by the promise of a high salary and good work conditions, etc. Of course, these never materialised, then or since. However, based on my retail experience, I was (for a time)offered positions with other companies, but I always turned them down (don't really know why) and I always feel that I made a huge mistake by going back to engineering after I had made the break, and created what was a new life for myself.


Initially, making the change was financially draining, as a trainee salary was not high. Once I had my own store, the salary and benefits (tangible and intangible) where more than a match for any engineering position available at the time. I would say that if you are at that point where you must make a decision, I would say make the change. It may be difficult, both financially and personally, but if things are as bad as they seem to be (for you) then make the change.


Whichever way you decide to go, the best of luck.

You see QCE, its not just me that says the opposite.

 

[nifez]

QCE: Youre right mate, wots the worst?. Gonna go over this summer, start lookin, come home for a year sort all my stuff out, then give it a real go.
PS. i wouldnt mind changing careers if the quality of life was worth it, but i had to work incredibly hard to get my degree, seems like a waste not to at least try and use it.

 

[CRG]

The first job may be the hardest to land; however, competition is good for the work pool. If a young engineer is unwilling to compete, then they should look for work in a less completive field. A licensed PE in my area is highly employable. Most firms have a hard time finding licensed professionals, and as such, they have no choice but to hire unlicensed engineers. I can say with certainty, that these firms than are in need of licensed professionals, usually have room for the right entry level engineer. For the graduate that is looking for work, I would ask, can you make money for an employer in the engineering field the first month you walk into their office? It takes more than just showing up for work, you must be profitable to hire. A college degree does not make you profitable to hire.

I landed my first engineering position in my last semester as a senior in college. The oil field company that had the positions narrowed the field to five candidates. They flew the group of five 450 miles for a weekend interview. They only had two openings; however, they liked four of the candidates so they hired four of us. The position had generous compensation, with excellent benefits. The job was a poor fit for me, so I quit after a year and can still go back to work for them to this day.

Next, the first thing I did was to find an owner of an Engineering firm that would talk to me and I asked him what skills would make me the most desirable for entry level engineering positions. I listened and then acted. I started a self study program for myself while I looked for work. During my job interviews over the next few months I told my interviewers about how I started a self study program because of my interest in the field of engineering. I always asked every potential employer what skills they were looking for and how could I improve myself. I found my second engineering job and needed a different skill set than my study program that I put together so I changed my study program to make myself a greater value to my new employer. Three months later, I got a call from the owner of the engineering firm that gave me the good advice. I turned down the job (I already had a job). I received two more calls during my first three years of engineering from those original interviews. Why?

Was it the advice of from the owner of the engineering firm that I spoke with? No. To this day, I do not know for certain why the owner was so generous with his time, but I have a good idea. I believe he saw the following:

I had desire.
I had passion.
I had confidence.
I was willing to work.
I was not afraid of failure.
I wanted to be profitable for my employer.
I never looked for a job, I looked for an opportunity.
I educated myself on the history of every engineering firm before I walked through their door.

Sorry for being so long winded; however, I have found just the opposite of those who complain about the engineering field with sour grapes. Also, I still have a self study program that I follow even though my State does not require continuing education for PEs. It just makes me a better engineer when I have study projects.

nifez, I believe that if you have some of the traits listed above, you can find opportunity anywhere.

 

[moltenmetal]

CRG: you're dead right- a passionate, skilled engineer who is motivated, does their homework on potential employers, is willing to relocate to remote areas etc. will always be able to find a job. In any country. But substitute "engineer" with ANY other profession with a similar level of education and the same would be true. There's nothing magical about engineering from an employment perspective- it's just as subject to supply and demand as any other profession is.

Canada creates jobs for engineers every year, and if nifez emulates your list of desirable attributes, he may snag one of them. It's just that Canada "chose" (by default) to graduate and immigrate roughly 100,000 more engineers in the past 12 years than the jobforce could reasonably absorb as engineers. To put that in perspective, there are only 66,000 licensed professional engineers in all of Ontario, Canada's most populous province- and roughly half of all Canadian engineering grads go on to licensure. So he'll have some stiff competition from other skilled, motivated people- people who are here already and have been for some time, with wives and kids to feed. It's unfair to insinuate that the reason these people are out of work is that they're not motivated, not skilled or not doing their homework. It's a fact that they're here, and it's also a fact that they're having an extraordinarily hard time finding work. And they're not being excluded from the workforce by a bunch of racist, protectionist employers either. They're being out-competed by the local workforce in an oversupplied marketplace. If nifez wants to join them, that's his choice.

Again, nifez, feel free to come on over. Canada's a great place to live, and as I said before you do have some things going for you- and it's no picnic in your home country either, so maybe you'll even be better off. If you actually have CRG's list of attributes, and are willing to move anywhere for work, your odds will be far better than the poor souls who chose to settle in Toronto.

 

[scalleke]

As a recent (2000) immigrant engineer from Belgium I feel I can comment here.

What about an immigrant visum. Is it not so that one cannot just come and look for work? I applied for an immigrant visa, got through the points system and waited for about 1 year to get all the papers done. Once I came here as a permanent resident all systems were go and I could look for and accept a job.

Canadian employers will ask for either a lot of foreign experience or some Canadian experience. Just coming here one summer will make that one cannot accept a job if the Visa issue is not resolved.

I have looked for employment three times in the Montreal area and found a job one time after 3 weeks and the two other times within 2 weeks.

By the way, my wife has just accepted a job in the Yukon, whitehorse. Winter there is OK she had one week of -30°C and just passed another week of -45°C. One thing is true as a secretary she can make between 7.5 and 15 an hour here and there she is making well over $20 an hour.

And yes, Canada is a great place to live, working relations that are top notch and the fact that one is respected count for a lot. I worked in the US too and believe me the yanks are quite a bit rougher than the Canadians are.

Oh and I can guarantee that if you have lived in France and the US and you get here in Canada people are so polite it scares you. And worse, the politeness is addictive.

Best regards,

Scalleke

 

[QCE]

Glad to hear your comments scalleke.

 

[MachinaMan]

I have had some friends in grad school that immigrated here (Montreal Can.) that had to get a local degree in order to get a job. Be careful so that this doesn't happen to you. Be sure that your degree is recognised before you get here.

Just my advice. That being sait, good luck !

R