Just starting out in consulting...how to price this job? (Florida) 10

[Boozie]

Hello,

I am a PE in FL with 8 years of experience in design. Job is in FL.

A colleague recently reached out to me and asked if I am interested in consulting on a small commercial project. They want a two-tenant 9,000 SF space, one story. I am assuming CMU walls with perimeter wall footings, steel joists with metal deck, and a slab on grade unless they tells me otherwise.

I have the experience to design this when I was working with an AE firm, but I currently do not have an LLC, do not have any laptop or software, do not have insurance set up, etc. I'll be starting out fresh.

I'm just looking for next steps and advice on how much to bill for my services, and how to set myself up for success.

1. Do I need to establish myself as an LLC in order to consult on the side and make money? What other options do I have to legally accept money for work? What are the steps, tricks, and advice you can give me for going down this path?

2. Do most consulting engineers buy an appropriate laptop or desktop, and then buy whatever software they need? Are there any tips to avoid paying the huge costs for the software?

3. Regarding billing, I've seen a lot of advice on this sub...typically billed at an hourly rate, or 1-2% of the total construction costs. For this type of project, based on hourly rates, this is what I am thinking to charge:

Hourly rate: $150/hour

Drafting
3 sheets for general notes and specifications: 8 hours per sheet, 24 total
2 sheets for plans: foundation, roof framing: 16 hours per sheet, 32 total
2 sheets for elevations: 16 hours per sheet, 32 total
2 sheets for sections: 16 hours per sheet, 32 total
2 sheets for fnd/roof framing details: 16 hours per sheet, 32 total

Total drafting hours = 152 hours

Engineering
Wind Design: 16 hours
Foundation Design: 16 hours
Column and Base Plate Design: 16 hours
Wall Design: 16 hours
Joist Design: 8 hours
Metal Deck Design: 8 hours
Misc. Features design: 12 hours

Total Design Hours: 92 hours

Total hours: 244, round to 250
Total cost: 250 hours * $150 = $37,500

Just wanted to determine whether that's a reasonable price to ask. I don't have the construction cost now, but I will try to do the 1-2% of the total cost and compare.

 

[canwesteng]

Designed as in engineered? Or designer as in stamped drawings out the door?

 

[XR250]

I agree with canwesteng. The 16 or 20 hours suggested above seems crazy for this, even after some optimization of tasks

Man, I used to do a fair amount of these and they just don't take that much time due to the repetition (assuming a relatively simple structure). Especially if you practice in FL where you should already know the wind pressures. Doubt there is any snow drifts to worry about either.

Without sharpening the pencil too much....
Column - trib x roof LL+DL - look it up in an AISC table - 5 minutes tops.
Roof diaphragm - 1-2 hours
CMU - 2 hours
Foundation - 2 hours
Bar Joists and Joist Girders - 2 hours
Misc steel - 2 hours
Drafting - maybe 20 hours - depends on what the Arch. provides.
I prefer not to work that fast but still - it could be done.

 

[Aesur]

As jerseyshore said, we need more information than provided, 40 to 50 hours total, out the door sealed, is reasonable for a simple one story 9000 sq-ft masonry structure. But I agree, there has to be client factors as some want phases, meetings, or are just difficult to work with, this takes time to figure out each client. I have a few clients that get a 2x factor based on as Eng16080 said, getting on the same page as them, and others that send me architectural plans that are so well developed that we rarely run into issues, therefore they don't have an arch factor.

 

[StrucPatholgst]

The time estimates seem kind of high. Once you have a library of details and templates, the drafting goes quick. Plus you should have the architect's set in DWG format before you get started. With those and the right software packages, the structural calculations package goes a lot quicker.

Note: I don't buy software anymore, I pay monthly subscriptions for them. I think the only packages I outright paid for were MecaWind and Right-Suite Universal. ClearCalcs, ClearEstimates, RISACalc, and Autocad are monthlies. ASCE Hazard Tool is free. Vulcan has a good free joist checker. HeliCAP is free. Weyerhauser's ForteWeb is free. AB Walls is free. Those, plus home-grown excel tables should get you a full calculations package on a small building in a week.

 

[IceNine]

It may be hard to be competitive if you bill your drafting hours at $150.
Also 1 to 2% of construction cost is a huge range (100% difference)
If this truly is a simple CMU box, you should be on the low end of this (which in my location is less than 1%, more like .75%)

 

[XR250]

I bill my drafting same as my design fee- at $220 as I draft while I do the calcs.

 

[AaronMcD]

I don't think you need an LLC. Just accept work and file taxes later. Pay quarterly if you wanna avoid late tax fees. Not a tax professional. Obviously.

I also think that sound quite high, though I don't work with masonry, in Florida, or on large boxes. More small boxes and complicated detailing.

Notes for me would be 1-2 sheets, a few hours to copy/paste and revise a bit, add some forms, set up title blocks.
8 hours per plan sheet for drafting is a bit high but there's usually thought and tweaking going on.
I don't do elevation and sections. If it's really complicated, several details in line kinda morph into a section.
For me, details takes a long time because they are mostly engineering and custom. I can take anywhere from 30 minutes to 6 hours on a single detail. Let's say 16 hours x 2 sheets.

Drafting 52 hrs x $100 = $5,200

For engineering, I don't know what "wind design" entails. Does it entail calculating every detail?
For me, the connections and details take by FAR the most time to design. Wind loading usually takes anywhere from 0 minutes to several weeks. In California seismic usually governs, but often I fill out the wind spreadsheet just to submit. Mountaintop stuff is insane for wind. A basic box without crazy overhangs, and heavy enough to not fly away shouldn't be too hard. I do a lot of steel and wood. Lateral system time depends on how familiar I am with it and whether I have a spreadsheet or not, and how thorough that spreadsheet is. I'd give a day to lateral, a couple days to detail calcs, a day to framing, and day for foundations, overturning, bearing pressure, etc. A day for good measure.

48 hours x $160 = $7,680

Total = $13,000.
Add 50% cuz there's always those changes, random communications, unexpected difficult areas, etc.

So close to $20k

I don't think I could get that here, so I'd back off a bit just to get the project. Depending on how familiar I am with the type of project, the architect, the details involved, etc.

Most work I do with CAD and spreadsheets. I use RISA sometimes, it's quite convenient for anything involving frames, even 2d. For walls and a flexible diaphragm, I wouldn't use FE software.

For calcs, I mostly use CAD, spreadsheets, and the same TI calculator I had through college and the PE exam. And yes I have a spare. I never use pencil or paper or paper books.

http://www.hellodwell.design

 

[SE2607]

I need to learn how to quote text...however, this is my two cents:

[I have the experience to design this when I was working with an AE firm, but I currently do not have an LLC, do not have any laptop or software, do not have insurance set up, etc. I'll be starting out fresh.]
Keep records, report to IRS at the end of the year on Schedule C. If you do more, you should become a dba. In CA, LLCs don't mean anything to us.


[I'm just looking for next steps and advice on how much to bill for my services, and how to set myself up for success.]
As others have said, complexity of the building has a LOT to do with with fees, followed by completeness and competence of the person who prepares the architectural drawings.

[1. Do I need to establish myself as an LLC in order to consult on the side and make money? What other options do I have to legally accept money for work? What are the steps, tricks, and advice you can give me for going down this path?]
See my response above regarding LLCs and business entities.

[2. Do most consulting engineers buy an appropriate laptop or desktop, and then buy whatever software they need? Are there any tips to avoid paying the huge costs for the software?]
Any computer should be adequate. Remember, engineers were doing this stuff before computers.

[3. Regarding billing, I've seen a lot of advice on this sub...typically billed at an hourly rate, or 1-2% of the total construction costs. For this type of project, based on hourly rates, this is what I am thinking to charge:]
It is rare to do this kind of project on an hourly basis.

[Hourly rate: $150/hour]
Your competition will be charging different rates for engineering and drafting. Keep that in mind.

[Drafting
3 sheets for general notes and specifications: 8 hours per sheet, 24 total
2 sheets for plans: foundation, roof framing: 16 hours per sheet, 32 total
2 sheets for elevations: 16 hours per sheet, 32 total
2 sheets for sections: 16 hours per sheet, 32 total
2 sheets for fnd/roof framing details: 16 hours per sheet, 32 total]
This is highly dependent on the complexity of the project, but my WAG is:
3 sheets of general notes (which are already in my library, requiring minimum edits: 1 hr.
2 sheets for plans, foundation and roof framing: 4 hours/sht = 8 hrs
2 sheets for elevations: 4 hrs/sht = 8 hrs
2 sheets for sections: 6 hrs/sht = 12 hrs
2 sheets for details: 20 hrs if custom; 10 hrs if "standard" and most are already in my library
49 hrs total @ $100 = $4,900


[Total drafting hours = 152 hours

Engineering
Wind Design: 16 hours
Foundation Design: 16 hours
Column and Base Plate Design: 16 hours
Wall Design: 16 hours
Joist Design: 8 hours
Metal Deck Design: 8 hours
Misc. Features design: 12 hours

Total Design Hours: 92 hours]

Wind: 8 hrs if complicated; 4 hrs if not
Foundation: 2 hrs (continuous footing and a few isolated pads sized similarly)
Column and base plate: 1 hr (16 hrs? Seriously?)
Wall Design: 2 hrs
Joist design: 1 hr (making all the bays similar, right?)
Metal deck: 1 hr (lookup Verco tables, talk with pretty girl as she walks by)
Misc. features design: 12 hrs (because you know what "misc. features" are and I don't)
Total = 27 hrs @ $150 = $4,050

[Total hours: 244, round to 250
Total cost: 250 hours * $150 = $37,500]
Six weeks to design one building? Really?

Total = $4,900 + $4,050 = $8,950 --> Say $9,750 plus CA

 

[jerseyshore]

I feel like we are all hitting the same range of about $10k for simple and $20k for really complicated, with the actual building someplace in the middle I'm sure.

OP, where you at?

 

[PEinc]

Boozie, first thing to do is check if your colleague would still hire you if you do not have professional liability insurance.

http://www.PeirceEngineering.com

 

[Boozie]

Hello Everyone,

First off, I want to thank all of you for your input and advice. Sorry for the delay, work and life have been hectic.

I posted the sample elevation in another post with a different question, but I will repost here for clarity. I don't think this will be a full CMU structure.

https://files.engineering.com/getfi...1-86f4-fe12519b65c6&file=Sample_Elevation.pdf

Looking at the attached elevation, there is at least 12' tall worth of windows that continuously span a great distance across the storefront, including wrapping around the corner on both ends.

To me, the storefront has to be structural steel framing with moment connections, and light gauge infill. The structural steel framing will wrap around the side and can then transition into CMU, which would encompass the rest of the sides and the rear. There will be what the architect called a CMU demising wall between the tenants, but I am thinking it might just be light gauge steel.

The mean roof height looks to be 22'-25', little higher than I would like. I am typically used to storefronts being at 10'-0" above finished floor. This storefront seems at least 12'-0", maybe even 15'-0".

I am also worried that the structure is partially-enclosed (need to confirm with calcs), which will drive up wind pressures as opposed to enclosed.

I said I have 8 years of total design experience, but 3.5 years of that was in the commercial sector: mostly doing facades and remodels for grocery stores, but also a couple of big boxes, and a few other retails and smaller projects. If this were full CMU, I'd feel pretty confident from the get-go. With steel framing, I have designed many steel framing systems, but I am a little less confident with the hybrid case.

I think I have what it takes to accept this job, and I feel like I need to just take the opportunity and tie up the loose ends as I go, but I worry about signing and sealing and liability. I am currently fully employed, with the ability to work OT if I need more money. I don't NEED this work from a standpoint of money. I am really considering this job for the other benefits - networking, learning how to run a business, staying fresh with unique designs/drafting experiences. I just wonder whether it's worth it from a liability standpoint.

To limit my worries on making a mistake, I am considering using some of my fee to have another PE review my work...did you guys ever do the same? How much would you charge?

DRAFTING

I absolutely agree that my drafting rate should be different than my design rate. I will now implement $100/hr for drafting and $150 for design.

Regarding drafting, since I don't have a detail library, I have to recreate many standard and basic details. I have some projects I saved from my last company, but I don't think it would be ethical to just blindly copy their details. How did you guys start out? Did you just spend the time upfront to draft new details? Did you use old company projects as a template to recreate?

There are lots of general notes and language I would have to retype. If I choose to include Specs on my drawings, I'd have to type that out too. Is there a generic database somewhere I can pull from?

STRUCTURAL DESIGN

From my understanding of retail design:

1. In-Plane Shear of Steel Frame

I am used to RISA 3D and RISA foundation for this...I would model the entire length of storefront frame in RISA 3D, RAM Elements, or similar software.

I don't know what the in-plane shear load distribution would be between the steel frame and rear CMU wall...20% to the steel and 80% to the CMU? Or would 50%/50% be "conservative"?

2. Out of Plane - Steel Columns

I can probably just do this in RISA 3D, though I am used to Enercalc from the past. Will ensure the joist connected to the column the column is designed to take the axial load resulting from the out of plane load.

3. Interior Columns/Base Plates

Would design for different DL and LL gravity loading conditions (loaded only on one side, or loaded on both sides)...would also include a moment associated with the eccentricity. This can be done in Enercalc.

4. Joists/Joist Girders/Roof Beams (W Beams)/Deck

Will use the load tables and SJI resources, to be designed by Vulcraft? Do I only need roof beams for heavy RTU loads above? Or should I make W beams the girders?

6. Interior Footings/Wall Footings

Enercalc

7. CMU Walls

Enercalc

8. Light Gauge

Do I have to design the exterior light gauge too, or can I have the client get that from a specialty engineer?

REVISED ESTIMATE

Drafting (limited detail library)

3 sheets for general notes and specifications: 6 hours per sheet, 18 total
1 sheet for General CMU Info, 6 hours total
1 sheet for General Misc. Details (RTU Framing, Column shear/moment typ. details), 6 hours total
2 sheets for plans: foundation, roof framing: 16 hours per sheet, 32 total
2 sheets for elevations: 16 hours per sheet, 32 total
2 sheets for fnd/roof framing details: 12 hours per sheet, 24 total

Revisions/Resubmissions/Permitting: 16 hours

Total drafting hours = 134 hours
Drafting rate = $100/hour
Total Drafting Cost = $13,400

Engineering

Wind Design: 4 hours
Foundation Design: 3 hours
Column and Base Plate Design: 3 hours (several different columns to check out of plane)
Wall Design: 2 hours
Joist Design: 1 hours
Metal Deck Design: 1 hours
Lateral System: 8 hours
Misc. Features design: 8 hours (This is for the stuff I am not anticipating...and a cushion just in case)

Total Design Hours: 30 hours
Design rate = $150/hour
Total Design Cost = $4,500

Construction Administration
14 hours

Total CA = $2,100?

Total Bid = $20,000

I still feel like I should be charging more (closer to $25,000) since I don't have any details, Specs, or general notes written, but I understand that that's my problem, the market is where it is...and I have to be competitive.

Let me know what you think.

 

[Boozie]

Schematic Elevation if you didn't get it in the post above.

https://files.engineering.com/getfi...1-86f4-fe12519b65c6&file=Sample_Elevation.pdf

 

[CANPRO]

Interesting conversation. I feel like there is something missing in the conversation. The discussion seems to be focused on how fast the job can get done and what would be an acceptable profit margin would be for that amount of effort. This is definitely a calculation that is required but to me that is the bare minimum that should be charged. What will the market bear? Is your colleague reaching out because they can't find another structural consultant?

I've spent a number of years in the consulting business but have since moved on to the contracting side. I still do some small consulting on the side. I've noticed that both consulting and contractors will start with the exercise shown here - under ideal circumstances, how fast can I get the job done and what is an acceptable profit margin for the work? But I've found contractors spend more time after that looking at what the competition looks like on the project, how hungry they likely are, and how much we can increase our minimum charge while still staying competitive. I feel like engineers don't often examine that second part much. There is nothing wrong with charging more fees because you think you can still get the job. I believe that to be entirely ethical and just good business.

In my area, you're lucky if you can get a structural engineer to pick up the phone for smaller projects right now. Good for my small consulting jobs I do on the side. And I price accordingly. I just did this on a recent job - priced the minimum, added a significant % extra, and compared that to what a small-medium sized firm would charge in current market conditions. Although I added 30-50% above my minumum, I figured I was still 30% less than what it would take to get an established firm to look at the project. I quoted my higher price and the client was very happy that not only did I respond, but my price appeared reasonable. Its a small project but I'm still going to end up making about $200-250/hr for mostly drafting work.

 

[Eng16080]

I price jobs almost entirely based on what the market will bear, as CANPRO mentions. Internally, I'll keep track of how much time a project takes, but I don't get into the detailed breakdown shown above, unless showing a detailed breakdown on a proposal will help me win a job. The client doesn't care how many hours it'll take me to design some bar joists, unless they happen to notice that I billed them too many hours for that task! They care about the overall fee, and that's about it. If you're lucky and have a reputation for doing good work and somebody actually notices (unlikely), then perhaps that's a factor too, but most clients can't tell a good engineer from a bad one.

If I'm the only person that will even pick up the phone for one of these jobs or if there's a crazy deadline, then the price should reflect that. On the flip side, if other engineers are willing to do a project like this one for only $2,000, then I'm going to pass on it unless I'm actually starving. The market really doesn't care about how many hours I think a particular job should take.

 

[XR250]

That looks pretty complicated especially if you are not delagating the metal studs.

 

[AaronMcD]

While I think typical details, standard notes, and one's own spreadsheet library probably cannot be all charged to a single job without pricing way above competition, if you can get it you can get it. I like to get one or two extra typical things added to my library per job, wherever it can fit into the fee. I don't really use typical details on my type of projects except basic 1.XX sheet stuff - shear wall schedule, holdown details, shear tabs, rebar laps and corners, typical stud details, etc. Most 4.xx and 5.xx details are drawn custom for every project. I may take some of my fee to improve or upgrade a spreadsheet or two. For instance, one job I may whip up a simple spreadsheet for that particular project. Next job I'll take that spreadsheet from my library and add to it to make it more versatile, and organize it a bit better. Next job I'll add a few more drop down boxes and lists, automate some code checks, etc.

http://www.hellodwell.design

 

[milkshakelake]

This is the first time I'm seeing people discuss prices openly, because it's largely an industry secret. Anyway, I'll throw in my $0.02. The structure/engineering/drafting part is $8,000-10,000 in my area for a 9,000 SF box. It's quite a small project, shouldn't take that much time to do. I don't know about construction admin, so I won't comment on that. I think the same project in the next state over would be $6,000-$8,000 because building codes are less stringent there. I don't know how stringent Florida is. And I charge high compared to other engineers in my area, so your numbers seem extremely high. Unless it's a crazy complicated modern building with setbacks, balconies, and wonderful sloping columns that all engineers love, it should be closer to $0.70 to $1 per sq ft.

As for software, I had a discussion with others here a while back about using the best tools available. It just makes your life easier. I think you software you chose would work well, if you're used to it. I'm a big proponent of using ETABS and SAFE because I think they're extremely versatile compared to other tools and even cheaper than RAM while doing more, but that's my own personal preference.

I don't know what the in-plane shear load distribution would be between the steel frame and rear CMU wall...20% to the steel and 80% to the CMU? Or would 50%/50% be "conservative"?

Let the FEM program figure that out. Just decouple the lateral systems with some pin connections. If you do it by hand and actually calculate the stiffness distribution, you're doing a great engineering thing but bad business decision. It just takes a lot of time, and then you get into the nitty-gritty of ACI stiffness factors for cracked/uncracked, and you run a cracking analysis with modulus of rupture, and it just becomes a nightmare.

I can probably just do this in RISA 3D, though I am used to Enercalc from the past. Will ensure the joist connected to the column the column is designed to take the axial load resulting from the out of plane load.

You don't design out-of-plane loads for steel columns except in curtain wall systems. It really depends on your load path, but the tributary wind area tends to be exceedingly small for the given loading. They're more "components and cladding" when it comes to out-of-plane wind loads instead of MWFRS.

Would design for different DL and LL gravity loading conditions (loaded only on one side, or loaded on both sides)...would also include a moment associated with the eccentricity. This can be done in Enercalc.

This tends to take a lot of time, so I'd just pick the three worst load combinations (axial, gravity axial+moment, uplift+moment) and design for that. At some point, you'd want to develop a spreadsheet to do this quickly, but that also takes a lot of time.

Will use the load tables and SJI resources, to be designed by Vulcraft? Do I only need roof beams for heavy RTU loads above? Or should I make W beams the girders?

Use SJI as much as possible so it comes from the same supplier. If you have to, then you start introducing W members.

Do I have to design the exterior light gauge too, or can I have the client get that from a specialty engineer?

Where I practice, that's not your design. If you do it, it comes at additional cost. You're just responsible for the superstructure.

To limit my worries on making a mistake, I am considering using some of my fee to have another PE review my work...did you guys ever do the same? How much would you charge?

10%. Get someone from Florida. Or message me, I'll do a quick 1-2 hour review for free.

 

[udraft]

Perhaps I'm out to lunch, but doesn't Florida have a steep residency requirement for Professional Engineer Licensing?

 

[phamENG]

Perhaps I'm out to lunch, but doesn't Florida have a steep residency requirement for Professional Engineer Licensing?

No. I'm licensed there and don't live in the state. Reciprocity was quite easy.

 

[Boozie]

Just to confirm - given the sample elevation I reattached to this post, would you all still classify this as a "simple box structure", and not particularly complicated? XR250 seemed to think it was more complicated than the info I originally provided in the OP.

https://files.engineering.com/getfi...5-a2e3-d71e86c3f4a5&file=Sample_Elevation.pdf

Also, have a few additional questions:

1. What happens if I'm halfway through drafting and design and reach a point where I feel I'm in over my head? Do I have the option to back out if I have to? What are the repercussions of doing so?

2. How is my fee affected if I did all the drafting and calculations, but had another PE review and S&S the drawings? Someone earlier quoted 10% for a typical review (and kindly offered a quick review pro bono, much appreciated Milkshakelake!). What about someone else S&S though? Does that mean that they would take the bulk of the fee since all the liability is on them, even though I am still doing most of the work?

3. In my proposal, I want to set up incremental payments depending on the stage of the project. Any recommendations for this? So for example, for this project, we will have 3 submittals:

-A 100% Architectural Plans submittal, with Structural narrative (no plans required)
-A 100% submittal of all disciplines, no S&S
-Permit Submittal and beyond

I am thinking of asking for 10% upfront, an additional 10% for the Arch only submittal, an additional 60% for the unsigned 100% submittal, and then the remaining 20% for permit. CA fees will be separate.

4. Any other design recommendations you can provide for me based on the sample elevations would be much appreciated!

Thanks again for all of your help.