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Justifying 3D CAD 3

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AeroNucDef

AeroNucDef

Aerospace
May 29, 2009
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Hi All

I've got a bit of a problem at work, wondering I could get some advice.

The company I work for have recently started using Solidworks, but they have been using Autocad for years. The production manager is getting annoyed that it takes longer to do manufacturing drawings in Solidworks than in Autocad. So the manager spoke to the MD to say that Solidworks is no good for our type of work (heavy engineering) and they should stick to Autocad. So next week I have been summoned to a meeting where I have to justify the continued use of Solidworks.

I've tried to explain to the manager the huge benefits of Solidworks, but he see's it as a waste of time. He's just want's his manufacturing drawings immediately.

The company doesn't do any R&D, or present models to clients.

I'm not sure what to do. If I don't come up with a good explanation, then I'm out of a job.



 
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> Why did they change to SW in the first place?
> How often did they have problems with parts clearance?
> Why is it taking longer? Most CAD programs will run in 2D if needed.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
 
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Do you have vendors that create parts/molds/etc for you?
Ask them if the jobs would be a lower price if they had 3D models to work from.
Would your customers be happier if they had 3D models?
The world has gone 3D, that should be enough justification, IMO.

Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP4.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion
 
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...This is from the solidworks website and might give you a few points to think about.

Depending on your type of work the use of 3D software can be used as a virtual prototyping tool which can cut costs in the shop. This should be something that the business guys love. You can use the example of finding a design error in an assembly before it makes it to production where it would have cost tooling/rework/time/materials.
 
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Hang on. There are many types of job where 2d drafting is faster and sufficiently good, although quite for how much longer you'll be able to get good 2D drafties is another thing.

The benefits of 3d cad are:

ease of visulaisiation
assemblies
interference checks
basis for CAE, FEA in particular.
compatibility with customer or subcontractor
and probably many others

If those are not important to you then Houston, we have a problem.



Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
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Much as I believe 3D is the only way to go for some types of work and with any new system there will always be a learning curve, there is a huge difference between knowing how a system works and being proficient on it. The fact that you have no idea how to justify the decision does lead me to think that the production manager might have a point.
 
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I too am wondering why it takes longer to produce manufacturing drawings? A 2D part/assy usually has to be drawn several times to create the necessary detail views and sections. A 3D part/assy only need be created once.

What exactly is the "heavy engineering" type of work? Bridges, buildings, mining, ships, ???

How much of the products parts and assys can be re-used in other products/projects?

Have you created a library of them?

The auto-creation of a BOM is often enough to convince management of the benefits of using solid modeling.
 
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I'm hope whoever sold you the software will be able to help give you ammunition - after all this is a big chunk of their sales pitch.

Some good stuff above.

How much of this is a learning curve issue and that your users aren't up to speed yet, and maybe aren't sure what to do with the 3D CAD yet, let alone how to use it.

Did you have a transition plan, to move from one software to the other?

If so, had this identified the need for training, technical support, possibly an on-site expert user...

If all you're trying to do is create drawings of parts, then 3D may not save you as much as its proponents claim. However, once you start taking advantage of its other capabilities, then hopefully you'd see the advantages.

One issue with CAD, perhaps 3D more so than 3D, is that because it's 'easier' to change things, you tend to change them more, which can eat up a lot of the potential savings.

Folks on may be able to give more targetted help, just watch out for fan boys.

Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​
 
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I think that the drawings are probably taking longer because the final product is not 3D drawings, but 2D drawings that could have come from AutoCAD.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
 
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However, depending how careful you are creating the model, and how complex it is, in many CAD systems you can get a drawing almost for 'free' as one way or another they can retrieve not just the geometry but also dimensions & maybe even tolerances from the model and plop them in 2D.

Not sure about the details on SW, which reminds me, really do need to learn SW as I'm the designated lead on transitioning to it.

Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​
 
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Well it's clear what will keep your paycheck- Reduced napkin to blueprint and revision cycle times. I can see some of the problem. I threw hours into a tool drawing in SW, made an adventure of in-context modelling that was unstable to boot. This go-nogo template probably would have fallen into place for a good autocad hand in about half an hour, and without the n00b mistake that I'll blame on model instability to boot.

I've been asked to do complex 3-D models and make them just so in cases where a less literal schematic drawing that you would do in ACAD or on a drafting board would make a perfectly clear definition of the assembly and work instruction. I understand that there are other reasons to go 3-D in this case, but definate burdens as well.

I would identify a case with the production manager and win him/her over- particular cases, particular beefs. Once you have your model, the geometric and dimensioning part of the drawing pretty much falls into your lap, so what is it about he production drawings that takes longer? In some cases, you can justify the time it takes to make a good parametric model with the reduced time it takes to make various configurations from it, which in turn can just dump to a standard drawing- your cycle time suddenly got a lot smaller.


Contact your local SW reseller, say you need a couple hours with an application engineer to resolve the problems that are hanging things up. On the prospect of selling new seats of SW, they may help you out or provide an 'evangelist' to pitch it with you.

Bottom line, if it's not working better, it's only POTENTIALLY better.
 
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Lot's of good stuff already. I'll try not to repeat much.

How long have your users been using SW, vs. using AutoCAD? Somebody who's been using SW for 4 months after AutoCAD for 10 years will be much faster in AutoCAD still - especially if you've designed a lot of custom tools/shortcuts in AutoCAD and haven't built the equivalent into SolidWorks yet. I know at a previous company we had some individuals that we just couldn't retrain through this transition and they pretty much derailed the whole proposition. It was something of a 'can't teach an old dog new tricks' situation. Even if people can/want to learn the new system, it takes time to attain equivalent efficiency.

Businesses don't tend to jump into significant expenditures such as multiple seats of expensive software without performing some kind of cost/benefit analysis. Is that analysis for your SW implementation around? Do the assumptions in it make sense?

In my experience it takes 6-12 months on average to surpass 2D efficiency after the move to 3D (assuming no prior knowledge/use of any 3D program). The fastest I've seen is 3 months, and I've also known people who will just never get it.

Some justifications off the top of my head (may not all apply to you):
- Assembly BOM generation
- model once, extract as many views as you want
- changes propagate to all views
- some complex geometry I find very hard to generate in 2D (curvy surfaces generally)
- integrated analysis tools
- improved visualisation (esp useful for displaying concepts to less-technical members of the organisation)
- rapid generation of families of related parts via design tables or similar.
- automatic production of flat patterns for sheet metal

Having said that, there are some areas AutoCAD still has perceived advantages over SolidWorks. Electrical schematic work comes to mind.
 
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Businesses don't tend to jump into significant expenditures such as multiple seats of expensive software without performing some kind of cost/benefit analysis.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that SteveMartin, I needed a chuckle. I nearly had tea to wipe of my monitor.

There was a thread over in "General engineering computer programs discussion" about choosing CAD packages which may have useful info.

Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​
 
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Well let me see...

I've been using high-end CAD for 33+ years and if there's one thing I've learned, it's that companies do NOT 'manufacture' drawings, but rather they manufacture PRODUCTS! There is concept design, layout design, analysis and validation, detail design, assembly design, manufacturing planning, tooling and fixture design, workcell design, testing and inspection, packaging, servicing, etc. Along the way you have to solve problems involving design for manufactuability, design for assemblility, design for serviceability, and more recently, design for recyling and/or resusability. All of this takes much more than orthographic projections plotted onto a piece of paper.

Look around you. Everything which you can touch, hold, drive, whatever, had to go though all of the above processes, and in most cases many more, before they became real objects.

And trust me, 2D drafting systems are not going to cut it. Look at the software used by today's Automotive and Aerospace OEM's. Or the companies which produce machinery for everything from printing newspapers, to weaving fabrics, to processing foods and chemicals (this is the industry where I spent all of my traditional engineering career). Or the people who conceive of and produce the myriad of personal electronic products, white-goods, toys, etc.

Without a fully defined 3D model which can represent the core definition of your product which is then used along the entire process, going from 'art to part', will you truly have an efficient and high quailty workflow which will produce what you need to satisfy your customers. Otherwise you have to stop to interpret, over and over again, pieces of paper with 3 orthographic views, struggling to convert what is only a series visual projections into needed data that is both time consuming and extremely error-prone. The days of everything being done with ink on velum, even if there was a 'CAD' system involved, are over.

Follow the links in my signature for more about what is now referred to as PLM or 'Product Lifecycle Management'.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 
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Thanks for the replies.

IRstuff,

I think the MD saw a few other competitors demonstating their models at a trade exhibition, so he must have the same.

It's taking longer than Autocad because their are six Autocad drafters and one SW modeler (ME!). Most of the drafters have been doing this same job for 20+ years, so they can just do a drawing at lightening speeds. I've explained that once the rest of them have gotten experience with SW, things will move on very quickly. I've also told them that you can do 2D in SW, but their answer is "we can already do it in Autocad!".

ctopher,

"The World as gone 3D". That's what I said to them.


Kenat,

I've been using 3D for 16 years professionally, started on Unigraphics, then PRoE, Catia, then for the last 3 years Solidworks. The rest of them have only used Autocad, before that they where using drawing boards.

The training is not very well organized, mainly due to having no time. The company has a really short unrealistic turn around time on projects, which puts a massive strain on everyone. All the drawings must be done by yesterday.

The parts that we make are not that complex, probably takes the same time in SW and Autocad. Most of the complex machinery is outsourced, and they also only do 2D :(

Stevemartin,

I agree with you. I think is going to take quite a bit of time (or a few retirements) to get the design time up to speed. The majority of the team are over 50 (i'm the youngest by far), having used autocad from the earliest days, with no exposure to 3D.

I showed them an assembly with moving parts, which all where amazed at, which I think now was a mistake, they now feel a bit out of their depth.






 
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