Keeping Women in Engineering 3

[mechmama]

I admit this sounds like a SWE forum topic, but we were discussing at work how many women engineers go part-time, decide to stay home, or moved to peripheral roles at their companies (like marketing) after having kids. I looked at my own company's org chart and realized that ALL the female managers are in peripheral departments, and while there are 20% female mechanical engineers on the bottom half (close to what I remember having in school), there are 10% in the top half.

Does this sound like the typical make-up at other companies?

Do you feel that many women just aren't cut out for project management or higher-level engineering? (And those that are, do stay)

Are companies losing good talent by not retaining women, or is it just natural selection?

Would women do better if they didn't have the kids' pictures on their desks, take approved time off for kids' functions, etc.? Even if the male management does the same?

I am interested to hear the honest male perspective. Obviously no one at work would say negative things to my face!

 

[TomBarsh]

I would disgree that women aren't cut out for x,y,z, etc. Some women, sure. But same for men.

I suspect what you see is a normal attrition due to some women dropping out of work for awhile to pursue other activities. They may try to rejoin the working/engineering world some time later, or may lose interest and want to pursue something else. A friend of mine was out of the work world for over 20 years, then went back into engineering. Of course, she pretty much started at the bottom. But she has advanced and done very well since.

I see nothing wrong with the kids photos, etc. Although I have always kept a pretty lean (impersonal looking) looking office area myself.

Another consideration, I have heard it said that most engineers (male or female) end up working outside of engineering at some point in their career. So some of those 'peripheral' jobs may be filled by male educated as engineers too.

 

[zdas04]

I see the path to advancement within engineering as requiring the necessary drive at the key moment. A lot of really good women engineers decide to have kids and want to do well raising them. That changes drive from career/project orientation a little bit towards the family. This is a very good thing for the next generation, but it can lead to walking out of a PHA when the school nurse calls, missing an out-of-town function because of a Christmas pageant, etc. Managers see that as affecting someones eligibility for management and either leave the woman in an individual-contributor role or finds a home for her in one of the "soft" disciplines. It isn't fair, it isn't right, the kid had two parents, right?

Everyone who gets onto the fast track to the boardroom gives up a lot of their life. Managers don't want to sponsor anyone onto that track who might end up reflecting poorly on the manager. Attitudes about women in engineering are finally coming out of the dark ages, but I don't think that the attitude towards someone with any non-company priority in their life will ever change. All the "work/life balance" tripe is simply the flavor of the week.

David

 

[atlas06]

My carreer took off when I worked for a woman supervisor.
I've learned so much in so little time, that I changed status overnight from Middle Engineer to Senior Engineer.
After one year under that woman, I was assigned to lead a 5,000,000 SF development project.
And she was so low key, soft spoken, but man, when she spoke, every one listened.
A buddy of mine who is an Electrical Engineer had the exact same experience.

Women are CUTOUT for Engineering Alright.

And I loved the fact that women Engineers can actually talk to you without using foul language, even when one makes mistakes.

 

[csd72]

Women on average seem to be better at multi-tasking and better at dealing with people (than men). These are two tasks that are central to good management.

As noted above women can make good managers.

I think there are a few reasons why women fall out of engineering:

1. they like to have other women to talk to-not as likely in engineering.
2. It is less likely that the women is the sole bread winner - and therefore the necessity to earn a good salary is not part of the motivation.
3. I think many of us men, if we left the industry for 9 months (or so) and realised that we could be earning just as much money doing other things, would probably leave. As we usually stay working then we are not as open minded to leave.

 

[HgTX]

"it can lead to walking out of a PHA when the school nurse calls, missing an out-of-town function because of a Christmas pageant, etc."

Attitudes leading to the "mommy track" because of fears that women will engage in the above behaviours will improve when men start engaging in more of the above behaviours as well.

Hg

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[zdas04]

HgTX,
You got that right, and ever so slowly it is starting to change, but so very slowly. 20 years ago you never heard of a stay-at-home dad, now they're a demographic that is getting some marketing attention. When my kids were small I wouldn't have considered leaving work to do "kid stuff", now I see it happening some, but still not a lot. Hell, when my kids were little I never saw a single baby-changing table in a men's room, now they are the norm. Maybe it things continue to improve until men with kids are as apt to be put on the "mommy track" as a woman would be. I just can't see anyone with a healthy attitude towards child rearing staying on the so called "golden path".

David

 

[GregLocock]

"Does this sound like the typical make-up at other companies?"

Yes. If anything 20% is very much on the high side where I've worked.

"Do you feel that many women just aren't cut out for project management or higher-level engineering? (And those that are, do stay)"

Not particularly. There's good women engineers, and bad ones, same as with men. Ditto managers. I don't have any idea what the proportions are.

"Are companies losing good talent by not retaining women, or is it just natural selection?"

Obviously

"Would women do better if they didn't have the kids' pictures on their desks, take approved time off for kids' functions, etc.? Even if the male management does the same?"

Do you think they are pushed, or do they walk? My impression is that they walk. That is they realise that there are better things to do than trying to knock 10c out of the manufacturing cost of a widget. Every day. For the rest of your life.



Cheers

Greg Locock

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[Romeosperson]

I can say that in my career I've had the opportunity to work for several companies and see completely different attitudes. I think a lot of the retainage of women in the workplace depends on the culture and not necessarily whether you have kids or not. I've never been married or had children.

My first company was very supportive of the women in the office, several women brought their infants to work. I think they realized the importance of making things work in order to keep the good engineers around. There was a high percentage of women in the office, but even so, only a couple were in management roles and none were owners.

A couple companies later, I worked for a man who I don't think felt that women belonged in the office. Between his horrid behaviour and the culture of the company in general, I stuck it out 18 months, got my PE and quit engineering entirely. 2 years later, I went back and I am very thankful to be in engineering again.

Being female can be very difficult. In my current job, I had to prove myself to the utility and streets departments before I had their respect. I'm still working on getting the respect of the contractors in town. I don't think a man in this position would have to work so hard to prove himself.

I don't think women are any less qualified for management positions or jobs based on sex. I think men and women bring different skills to the table which rounds out a team quite nicely. Yes, companies are losing out a lot by not working to retain employees in general, regardless of sex.

If I can't succeed in a company because I have personalized my office (within reason), I'll find another company. I have pictures of my labradors on my desk, heck if I have to work on a weekend, they come with me. I would expect no less from my employees or coworkers.

 

[MikeHalloran]

I've mostly worked in manufacturing companies, where engineering is more peripheral than marketing ... certainly if salaries are any measure.

Among the women with whom I've worked, the hero/villain ratio seems about the same as for the men.




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[bk11]

I've never met a female engineering manager or a female engineer that had become a project manager. I haven't even met a female engineer over the age of 35..

Maybe it's the countries I've worked in (Australia and the UK). I've been working as an engineer for 8 years and haven't seen much change in the profession.

Of my close female friends that trained as engineers and have had kids, not a single one is working as an engineer and only one works full-time (as a Tech College teacher). One other tried some consultant work from home, but found it difficult to keep up especially when number two arrived.

These women all have really young kids and are the primary carer, so time and energy are at a premium right now. I do think that the majority of them will find their way back to engineering when their kids are older. They all have a very technical and organised mind (much more so than I have!).

I think engineering is hard to fit around other priorities. If you work on projects, then clients are demanding, and time and resources are pre-defined and relatively inflexible. If you are in design then market forces demand 'we want it yesterday' type deadlines. I work in applications and it really needs someone to be in the office with all our resources and test gear. And anyone in maintenance really needs to be onsite and available at short notice.

I have yet to see an engineering position that can cater for family needs, especially when you are the primary carer. A lot of men have told me that they find it similar and some guys at my company have refused promotions or not applied because they'd rather be home for their wife and kids.

I accept the fact that I will need to think very creatively about how to do things in the future if I want to stay in engineering and have a family. I may just find it too hard as well. Heck, if anyone has some good ideas, let me know!!

I actually haven't met a female engineer over thirty that is without kids, so I don't know whether the high drop out rate I've seen is purely because of kids. Probably I just don't know enough people.

 

[JStephen]

bk11, when I was in college (1979-1983) there were about 100 ME students my age, and exactly 3 of them were female. Not having many older female engineers is probably not due to dropping out of the workplace so much as just a reflection of the number of women in engineering 20 or 30 years ago.

 

[Ussuri]

In my last office we had about a 50/50 split between males and females. The boss and the senior engineers were male but most of the younger engineers were female so there is no doubt in my mind women make excellent engineers. Over the last year or so about 30% have left to look after the children but this was a pretty small regional office. This used to cause my boss a headache because of the skills shortage in the UK, he did have problems finding good replacements.

 

[epoisses]

This is a very generic phenomenon, it's not at all related to engineering.

Most men don't cook very well, most women do the cooking at home. You could be tempted to think that women are "naturally" better at cooking than men, but surprise surpise: the vast majority of "chefs" are men!
Most women simply prefer spending time on raising children than pursuing a demanding career. And that's OK. Some women prefer the demanding career. That's OK too.
Why would one want to change that situation i.e. make pursuing a demanding career more attractive than spending time on raising children - would the children be thankful?

 

[kchayfie]

When I look round at my generation of engineers, I believe that when we have the age and experience to find ourselves in the management echelons, the ratio of men/women will be about the same. The married men are under pressure to stay at home with their wives so the single girls get the pressure from work to travel. The young fathers have as many pictures of or by their kids on their desks as the young mothers. Dads are as likely to take a call from nursery to go and pick up little johnny because he's fallen ill.

If we stop looking for inequality where there is none, it will be much easier to eliminate genuine acts of discrimination in the workplace.

 

[epoisses]

The inequality in numbers is something that is occurring naturally, nobody pushes men or women in one direction or the other. Women don't stay at home against their will, men don't work against their will. Everybody takes their conscious decisions. Now what right would anybody have to interfere with that? If 20 years from now the male/female ratio in management has become 50/50, fine, if not, fine, it's a free world.

 

[swearingen]

epoisses, I think you need to re-read Romeosperson's post. There are things pushing females away from engineering. It starts when they're very young (at least in American society). Ask how many parents have purchased Lego or other blocks for their girls. Now compare that to those that purchased them for their boys. Granted, their daughter may not play with them, and that's OK, but were they given a chance?

Fast forward to Romeosperson's position. When she goes to the field and has to deal with a gruff, hard-nosed contractor, she must be more competent and knowledgeable than any male or she will be immediately dismissed. Not that any green engineer is looked at favorably in the field or on the shop floor, but a woman even less so it seems. I can say this because I've seen it first hand. I had a female engineer working with me on a project and we spent a week at a job site out of town. In meetings and out on site, when any question was asked or any comment made, it was directed to me and not her. Even though she had a heavy hand in the project it was as if she didn't exist. To her credit, she did pipe up when she needed to and eventually won them over, but had it been a male with me, this would not have happened.

I do believe that female engineers bring much to the table. I've worked with some good ones. I still think, however, that we're not quite there on the equality front.

 

[HgTX]

Things are changing. Give it another coupla decades and see whether it's changed enough. Different fields change at different rates, too.

When I was in general civil engineering classes, it wasn't 50/50, but there were a fair number of women. When I specialized in the structural classes, there were only two women in a class of 50.

epoisses, the thing about inequality in numbers is that maybe it isn't occurring naturally. It used to be that women stayed home because they had to. Now, at least most of the time, they stay home because they choose to. Nice to have that choice. But there are probably a lot who stay home (or choose non-technical fields, or whatever) because they didn't think they really had a choice. It bears looking into.

Anyone who imagines there are no prejudices left (internal or external) that will affect people's choices needs to open their eyes. Just recently a woman a year younger than me was telling me horror stories about how some of her professors didn't believe women should be in engineering. This would have been in the late 1980s or early 1990s!

Hg

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[civilperson]

What does it matter and who cares about gender in engineering? Like race, religion, ethnic origin, age and physical attributes: IT IS IRRELEVANT! (My boss is from XYZ University and can not compare to My alma mater! Geaux LSU)

 

[HgTX]

One example: It matters when your professor gives you a harder time than the other students because you are female.

It makes it harder to get grades as good and thus to be competitive with your peers in the initial job market. Or it makes it harder to stay motivated to remain in the field.

Gender etc. may be irrelevant to one's innate ability to do things, but they are not irrelevant to how one is treated, and how one is treated definitely affects one's performance.

Not irrelevant.

Hg



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