Keeping Women in Engineering 3

[mechmama]

I admit this sounds like a SWE forum topic, but we were discussing at work how many women engineers go part-time, decide to stay home, or moved to peripheral roles at their companies (like marketing) after having kids. I looked at my own company's org chart and realized that ALL the female managers are in peripheral departments, and while there are 20% female mechanical engineers on the bottom half (close to what I remember having in school), there are 10% in the top half.

Does this sound like the typical make-up at other companies?

Do you feel that many women just aren't cut out for project management or higher-level engineering? (And those that are, do stay)

Are companies losing good talent by not retaining women, or is it just natural selection?

Would women do better if they didn't have the kids' pictures on their desks, take approved time off for kids' functions, etc.? Even if the male management does the same?

I am interested to hear the honest male perspective. Obviously no one at work would say negative things to my face!

 

[cedent]

I have a great job, and man do I love it. I never once considered the fact that I was a female going into a male dominated field...I wanted to be recognized for talent and competence. However, I can tell you that those around me have considered it. I know that my boss, husband, brother, and father have all initiated conversations with me about it.

I have had contractors totally ignore me as if I wasn't speaking. The next day, I could bring a gray haired co-worker (or any gray-haired man off the street) to stand next to me... and they would hear me.

I have also been asked by several contractors to speak to thier grand-daughters about engineering. I don't think the girls were as interested as thier grand-dad's thought they were, but we had a good time talking.

There are other contractors who refuse to let me walk the site without them by my side (I mean within 2-3 feet). They also like to tell me where to step (every step). At first I thought they just wanted to be there for my observation. I later found out that was not entirely the case. I just don't let it bother me.

I can tell you, if you are female... and especially if you are blessed to look younger than your age; it will take a while for your clients to have confidence in you. However, it doesn't take long to make good friends and clients out of them.

As far as the workplace goes... I definately don't look at the situation as a problem. This is exactly what women have been striving for. The freedom and flexibility to come and go from the workplace in any profession and to earn a fair salary. What more can you ask for?

The absences are probably more noticeable in the engineering field because there are fewer of us.

 

[Heckler]

I think having children has the possibility of changing a persons perspective on what's important in live. Before my wife had our son she was a very succesfule Operations Manager (non engineering) and working on her masters degree. After having a child and staying home to raise him. She has changed her career direction to a masters in education so she can teach K-6. She freely admits that staying home with our son she has lost her cutthroat businees edge and realizes she did want to go back.

Best Regards,

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SWx 2007 SP 2.0 & Pro/E 2001
Dell Precision 370
P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
XP Pro SP2.0
NVIDIA Quadro FX 1400
o
_`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

(In reference to David Beckham) "He can't kick with his left foot, he can't tackle, he can't head the ball and he doesn't score many goals. Apart from that, he'

 

[josephv]

There were four women in my graduating class, whom I was good friends with. This is how they did:

1 Got her MBA and now works in Europe for a multinational

2 Started working in finance right after school

3 Worked as an applications engineer for a well known electronics company, then joined her friend in finance

4 Works for a well known aerospace company doing FEA work


I think they did great for themselves (career wise and money wise), and better than most men in my class. The economy was not great when we graduated, this may have influenced their decisions, but they moved forward.

 

[ScottyUK]

At my site, and in my industry generally (power generation), women are hugely under-represented in the engineering and technical ranks. I'm pretty sure we haven't had a female engineer even apply for a position in the past eight years. Had it happened it would have been unusual enough for it to stick in my memory.

To those who think there should be a balanced representation of the sexes, I'd ask: what if the female engineers just don't want to work in certain industries?

I'd be delighted to see a less male-dominated engineering department. Women tend to bring a different skillset to men over and above the plain engineering ability: they're typically better negotiators, usually better at multi-tasking, often more organised than their male opposite numbers. It would be great to get some of those skills into the company, but women just don't even apply. It isn't surprising: power is a field losing more engineers to retirement than it has entering it, and those who do graduate with a qualification in it are almost all male. The working environment simply doesn't appeal to most female engineers that I know: long and irregular hours, working outside in all weathers, work that is frequently of a physical nature, plants that are far from clean, a male-dominated contractor workforce with few social graces... none of my female engineer friends are remotely interested in joining such an industry. They make a good living in other areas: of my friends, they are in R&D (2), applications engineering (1), flight simulation (1), microelectronics (2), semiconductors (1), management (3). Four of them have kids and their employers offer them a level of flexibility that I don't think could be offered by my employer, although it's never been tested.

And finally, do female-dominated industries have similar discussions about how to attract or retain male employees?

Enough rambling - I need a coffee!


----------------------------------

Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...

 

[mechmama]

ScottyUK - I actually work in power, but I work for a consulting firm, not at a plant. I do like the dirty side though, at least from the times I've been to the jobsites for inspections, etc. I didn't KNOW that I would like climbing around a piperack until I tried it for the first time at 22. Most women don't give it a shot, so they don't know. I have two kids and am still in the engineering field full time. . .I guess I'm lucky because my husband is a modern man who takes equal share of the childcare duties.

And yes, there is always discussion how to attract men to female-dominated industries. Schools love to talk about how to get male elementary teachers, especially ones with clean background checks.

 

[ScottyUK]

Schools... interesting: my wife is a primary school teacher; I will ask her about this topic. You're right, it is female dominated at her school: there are three male teachers so far as I know out of maybe twelve.

Nice to know there are a few ladies who work in the power industry. How do you find it as a working environment? Why do you think so few women even apply for a position, let alone take a job in our industry?


----------------------------------

Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...

 

[Christine74]

A recent survey found that most women actually prefer to have a male boss over a female boss:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=433782&in_page_id=1770

-Christine

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

ScottyUK

I have a female friend that works as a speech therapist (a field heavily dominated by women). I asked her about it and she said she can't recall anyone ever mentioning trying to attract more men to the occupation.

 

[MRM]

I volunteered to help with MathCounts this past weekend as I have the last few years. It's a math competition for junior high students sponsored by NSPE among other large corporate sponsors. The competition is intense and these kids are really sharp.

After reading through this post and others like it last week, I made an extra special effort to observe the kids, coaches, and other volunteers there.

I observed that there were approximately 50/50 male and females represented. Even though mostly men were grading the morning tests, I never once heard anything in the way of even the slightest comment about a girl who might have been doing better than the guys. (the morning tests are graded in a separate room from the competitors) When it got to the be the top 10 individuals going at it for the "lightning round" there were again about half and half. I noticed that when a boy got a question correct everyone cheered very enthusiastically. Then when a girl got a question correct everyone cheered very enthusiastically. I could not detect any difference at all in the level of applause. I looked around the large room (I was in front so I was able to see the expressions on everyone's faces) and I didn't see any faces or other body language from girls or boys, women or men, that would suggest that anyone was disappointed that a boy beat a girl on a particular question, or a girl beat a boy.

This behavior is exactly the same that I've observed in years past for this event, and also for the annual regional Science Olympiad event that I've volunteered for since 2000.

My conclusion, based on my keen people watching skills over the course of many years, is that girls/women are not held back by anyone.

If there is any chance at all that a young girl is indeed being held back in some way, it might be because there are older women telling them to expect to be held back. The power of suggestion can dominate someone's thought process in many different ways throughout life.

 

[rothamer]

Up until lately I’ve had a pretty typical woman-in-engineering experience: graduated in a class of 5-10% women, worked primarily with men, was mostly treated like “one of the guys” (in a good way) with only a few exceptions. Now, I work in an engineering department in which half of the engineers are women. Not only that, but two of the three leadership roles are filled by women. The women range from new graduates to a grandmother. No conscious effort was put into recruiting or promoting women in particular… it just happened. (I find that the main difference in the workplace is more frequent and better quality snacks.)

 

[Romeosperson]

While things have changed for the better, there are still hold outs who don't think women belong in engineering. You don't have to be a woman to recogize that you aren't wanted, and most people will look for opportunities elsewhere if that is the case. This isn't always true, obviously, but it does drive a percentage of women from engineering.

 

[Senselessticker]

Here's what I think:

Its the unspoken truth....talented male engineers start to worry about their company/career image when surrounded by too many female engineers, especially if the female engineers are involved in management.

Sadly, its a Catch-22 for the women. Even if a woman is a very talented engineer, and she is promoted to a management position....many of "the guys" will start looking for work elsewhere.

So what happens? Companies have to weight the risk of loosing a few male engineers against the potential benefit of promoting a very talented engineer (who just happens to be female). Its a Catch-22 for companies also.

I believe, in time, this trend will change.

In my next life...I'm certainly going to choose a career with more women

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Senselessticker,

"talented male engineers start to worry about their company/career image when surrounded by too many female engineers, especially if the female engineers are involved in management."

Why?

 

[bvanhiel]

Its the unspoken truth....talented male engineers start to worry about their company/career image when surrounded by too many female engineers, especially if the female engineers are involved in management.

Your bigotry is showing.

-b

 

[MRM]

Yes, why? I haven't noticed that at all.

I have however noticed that some recent research suggests that women, when in a position of power, tend to guard it from other women trying to climb to that position of power or somewhere near it. Maybe "The man" (who's trying to hold everyone down) isn't even really a man at all in some cases. Hmmmmmm...

 

[prohammy]

Senselesssticker,

Re talented male engineers leaving....

Wrong my friend. What you're talking about ain't nothing but insecurity (afraid that's no fault of the women) but something us men have created for ourselves. Any talented engineer should be able to fight his own corner, not matter what gender he faces.







Kevin Hammond

Mechanical Design Engineer
Derbyshire, UK

 

[bk11]

I've been giving this a bit more thought and I do think that one of the important issues when it comes to keeping women in engineering is having friends in the workforce. I've seen the occasional news article on the importance of friends for women in the workforce in Australia (shall see if I can find it again) but it may be different for different countries.

It can be incredibly lonely for women engineers when they are the only female engineer in the office. I've had this before and sometimes even if there is one other female engineer, chances are that you sometimes won't get along.

I've so very nearly chucked in my engineering career before, and every single time I've ended up sticking around because another female engineer joined the office and we've gotten along really well, or I've made friends with another female engineer outside of my workplace who is going through a similar loneliness.

I wish it didn't make such a difference and that I could tough it out more. In my late teens, I got along better with the guys than the girls. I got along well with people of all sorts of backgrounds and made friends quite easily. I liked getting my hands dirty and liked technical challenges. The career choice made a lot of sense.

Now I start to query my career choice and wonder why I should continue to tough it out on my own. Instead of getting used to the isolation, the cumulative loneliness has left me feeling less tough and less sure of myself. It's especially difficult when other women have careers that give them companionship and emotional support as well as being better rewarded financially and having better job flexibility. I've come so close to wanting to retrain as an accountant. My husband tells me I'd be bored out of my brain in half an hour. He's right of course..

For some reason my enjoyment at work and having other female engineer friends around me gets more important the further into my career I get. It also gets much harder to find and maintain these friendships.

I know I am probably thinking 'grass is greener' when it comes to having more women in my career at my workplace. I've heard a few horror stories of the nastiness that can go on in other female dominated careers. I'm also sure it's not just women that can feel isolated in the workforce. I just wanted to point out one of the big issues I've had that has nearly resulted in me changing my career.

 

[Ashereng]

mechmama,

Your OP is an issue that is also a concern to me personally. No, I am not an employer, but I do have a daughter.

When I read your OP, I re-worded your question a little bit to "How many engineers go part-time, decide to stay home, or moved to peripheral roles at their companies (like marketing) after having kids, if they are the primary care giver?"

I think that the problem with retaining women who are the primary care giver would be the same as retaining men who are the primary care giver. One example is a male colleague who decided to stay home (on paternity leave) after his baby was born (his wife makes significantly more). When he came back, he was moved from a lead position, and onto a lesser responsibility role on a smaller visibility project. Why? Because, as he said, his primary concern is the baby (or, put another way, his project no longer comes first). There are lots of other engineers who still want to climb the corporate ladder, and I think it is only right that they get the plum roles because they are willing to make the sacrifices to get it.

In this respect, the women who go part time are in pretty much the same situation as men.

The big difference is that more women are primary care givers than men - which I think leads to the generalization/sterotype that women with kids move to the periphery. I think if more men were to give up their career for the family, then the stereotype would start to disappear.

Having said all of this, I am aware that inequalities do exist in many engineering shops - as evidenced by the posting of others. There are many men, and women too, who have outdated sterotypes of women engineers (unfortunate but true). Hopefully, as society changes their views on the care giver's role in families, they will also change their views on women in engineering.

Oh, one last thing. There are "zero" women in engineering, and "zero" women in project management in my current company at this time.

Hope my perspective helps.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[EddyC]

I have heard from younger male engineers that work for consultants that they feel they are working in a "male only" profession. As we all know, most young people wish to interact with the opposite gender.

 

[Senselessticker]

Let's do a little math exercise. The ratios I'm going to use are arbitary, but I think everyone will get the point.

Let's assume that male and female engineers are equal in the odds of being a "good" engineer. By that I mean "management material". Let say that those odds are 1 in 10.

This means that 1 in 10 female engineers are promoted, and 1 in 10 male engineers are promoted. Each promotion is mutually exclusive.

Roll the dice and do the math. If women were to still make up 20% of those promoted....then, either there are a great deal of slacker male engineers...or else women have some kind of advantage.

By the way...I'll not take offense to the bigot comment. I was only stating a very real perception, and in no way was expressing my personal views or opinions. For the record...my boss is female.