L-N-G

[RAVWARD]

Hi Everybody,
I am located in Canada and was talking to a company in US about a chute heater for heating of chute plates so that ore does not stuck in winter. The guy told me, who was an electrical engg, that they have heaters in 120v and 240 V types. As I have to come up with an arrangement to turn on and off the heater. So I asked him, how many leads are coming out and he mentioned to me in case of 240 V,it is L N and ground. What confused me that when we have a 240 V system we have two line and one ground. There is no neutral and this is in canada called single phase split neutral system and I hope the same is in USA. What I am missing here like in houses, the oven ranges has three leads and two are line and the other one is ground. Please advise me, who is right.
Thanks

 

[jraef]

The guy is wrong, or ignorant (or the manufacturer is and he is just repeating the mistake). 240V should not have a N terminal unless there are two Ls, L1 and L2. L to N is going to be 120V, even in the Great White North! He may have just looked at a 120V unit and reported what he saw, but the 240V version should have labels that correctly indicate the potential.

JRaef.com
Eng-Tips: Help for your job, not for your homework Read faq731-376

 

[Senselessticker]

I am not knowledgable of common electrical practice in Canada. However, Is it possible that the guy simply conveyed wrong information because he lacks knowledge about such systems? I know some very good electrical engineers who know virtual nothing about common electrical distribution on LV systems (and probably could not tell you the difference of black/white/green wire in a house)....because they have never been exposed to it other than the theory learned in school.

I have to constantly watch what some of our Project Managers say (or write) because they often take notes at meetings that end up on paper. Those notes sometimes turn up on contractual documents which can lead to HUGE misunderstanding to the folks reading it. For Example: "High Voltage" to an Architect may be considered to be any Voltage greater than 120V. However, to a Power Engineer "High Voltage" indicates something entirely different. If the information gets handed off the wrong way, it can filter down to be misleading.

 

[AbbyNormal]

Sure it wasn't 277 or 346?

I have seen a 240V H with a neutral, to solve a problem caused by a hotel owner buying 300 PTACs rated 208-230/1/60 and his building was 480. In essence they had to add transformers to convert 480 to 415/240, used 480 panel boards single pole breakers and then fed 240V with a neutral to the air conditioning units.

 

[waross]

Actually, in Canada, ranges have four wires. Two hots, a neutral and a ground. There may be some newer units that don't need 120 volts and run on just two hots and a ground.
As to your heater. L1, L2, Ground.
For 120 volt heaters, connect L2 to the neutral.
For 240 volt heaters, connect L2 to the other hot line.
There are 240V/416V three phase system in use in some parts of the world and with this system, the 240 volt heater would be connected between a hot and a neutral.
respectfully

 

[ScottyUK]

Could the 240V L-N-G heater be destined for Europe? That is the standard (OK, was the standard ) voltage in the UK before the Brussels Eurocracy decided that we would have 230V+6% instead.


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Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...

 

[jraef]

Are you sure it's electric? Maybe LNG is telling you it is designed to run on Liquified Natural Gas!!!

JRaef.com
Eng-Tips: Help for your job, not for your homework Read faq731-376

 

[waross]

Stop teasing the OP, jraef.
You know that LNG is only handled in bulk, typically by the shipload, and is always vapourized before being delivered to the consumer. I will allow that there were some experiments, years ago with supercooled LNG for vehicle fuel. (Mostly service trucks and vans belonging to a gas utility.)
To the normal refuelling hazards, were added the hazard of extreme cold and much greater masses of gas being released in the event of a leak.
The gas self cooled by evaporation, and the tanks would bleed of and go empty in a few days if the vehicle was not used.
respectfully

 

[OperaHouse]

Does it matter? I don't even have to look this up to know that with an agency approval the device will be labeled properly and that even a NEUTRAL terminal will have the same insulation potential as the L1. Expecting tech support to give you correct answers is like leaving the porch light on for Jimmy Hoffa.

 

[ScottyUK]

Hi waross,

OT sightly:

LPG-fuelled vehicles are becoming popular over here in the UK. Not LNG yet, but LPG attracts a significantly lower level of duty from government than petrol and is thus becoming attractive to high mileage drivers who can afford the conversion and the loss of space to accomodate the tank. Early takeup was slow because refuelling facilities were patchy, but they are now commonplace.

Is this happening in North America, or is gasoline still so cheap that no one cares? I know you're prices have risen in the last couple of years, but I'm still envious!

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Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...

 

[macmil]

Propane was quite popular as an auto fuelin Western Canada for a number of years; I would say from the early 80's. At that time there was even OEM support from at least Chrysler. At that time it was mainly an question of economics.
At that time the propane was abundant as a by product of the natural gas industry. Then the government added tax to "equalise the tax treatment " ie cash grab, and also fuel injection became the standard rather than carburettors, with significant improvements in fuel economy. And then the propane surplus slowly disappeared so that the fuel was sold at a competitive price to gasoline. So propane use has lessened probably significantly. ( I have been somewhat out of the loop for 10 years; maybe someone else can add new stuff ) And this applies mostly in Alberta and other areas with good access to propane.

 

[davidbeach]

There are a lot of transit busses running on LNG. I've seen them in Portland and Tacoma and probably elsewhere. They can be easily spotted by looking for the shrouded area on the roof where the evaporator coils are located.

 

[itsmoked]

A company decided to create a compact LNG terminal about 8 blocks from where I live.

I stopped once to interrogate an engineer working on the machine. It was about the size of a 30ft container. It had a large V8 in the middle of it. Essentially they split all the other gases out of the NG from the street main to run the V8. They then use the engine to refrigerate the remaining pure methane. The result was a 500 gallon tank of LNG. Their proudest achievement though, was the fueling nozzle which looked just like a regular gas pump nozzle and was used just like one. Poke it in the hole and pull the trigger.

I asked about the evaporative problem. He said that they now have a fuel tank that is so well insulated that you could take a fully fueled vehicle and leave it in a normal garage until it was out of fuel. And the evaporative rate would not cause any ignition problems.

It was all very interesting. He said they were starting to install them in fleet locations. Then one day the 'prototype' was gone - the field was empty.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.-

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[jraef]

Hey! The LNG thing was just a bad joke, not even good enough to be called a pun! Sorry I brought it up...

 

[Skogsgurra]

Jeff! LNG is NOT a bad joke! It is very real. It is used instead of gasoline. You ought to know that!

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org

 

[Skogsgurra]

Sorry Jeff. Couldn't resist. Godnight for now!

Gunnar Englund

http://www.gke.org