Large 5 axis CNC with nothing to do. Industries that can use its' ability? 1

[fastline12]

Hope I don"t get beat up too bad here but a local shop I am involved with owns a large capacity, 5 axis horizontal mill that is paid for but has been put in storage due to a lack of work. It is rather sad as the machine has very little use and very capable and highly accurate! I know of several of these same machines building the Ti landing gear for Airbus!

I realize this may not be the right forum but many here seem to be very inactive. I ask here only because MEs seem to know parts, materials, and dimensions. The downfall here is the shop currently is not ISO or AS certified or approved as a top tier vendor for any OEMs and I found that most shops want to keep any suitable work in house.

This machine can easily machine a 4ft cube or more and hold .0002" doing it. Just curious if you guys happen to have any thoughts of industries to call on to find something for it to do?

 

[tbuelna]

There is a fundamental problem with the situation you describe. On one hand your company has a 5-axis CNC horizontal mill that is not being utilized. But on the other hand, I'm sure there are lots of people that would be happy to have your company machine parts on this mill for a low price, but you would likely lose money doing so. So is it better to keep the machine idle unless you can get work that will produce a profit, or is it better to accept work for this machine just to keep it operating, even if it does not produce a profit for your company?

 

[fastline12]

Ha, you actually hit the nail on the head with that! I should clarify, we cannot find any work that is actually "profitable" to even consider turning the machine on!

This seems to me the facto for this shop. I know of a couple aerospace contracts that were awarded after finally bidding to ridiculous numbers, then the customer was not happy that certain tooling was not afforded because there was no funds for that!

Yes sir! Seems to be a long list of people that would happily put parts on it and watch the company go down the drain, then move to the next.

This is a situation where if profitable work cannot be located, it would be smarter to just leave it in storage or just sell it. This is NOT a situation where cheap work needs found just to keep the lights on.

 

[tbuelna]

What is the model of this machine? A large 5-axis horizontal mill is a very specialized piece of equipment. And when needed for a specific task, it can justify its shop rate.

 

[fastline12]

I probably should not add too many details on a forum but it is american iron, and has the A axis as spindle rotation, not table tilt so it can reach in and undercut cut stuff well and nearly run as a vertical spindle machine as well.

It is seriously rigid, designed for hard metal cutting. It would be perfect for Ti cutting, has linear scales throughout, and probing system to do its own inspection reports. It is a pallet machine and designed to run full production 24/7 and I know of one that has never stopped running since the day it was installed.

Hard to cut it loose I guess....

 

[chicopee]

My question is about the reason for the purchase of this 5 axis CNC in the first place. It seems to me that management was short sighted about getting into a market in which there would be little chance of breaking into. I also question management about the reality of getting more work with the other machines that seem to be sidelined. May be it's time to get rid of upper management.

 

[MintJulep]

I know of one that has never stopped running since the day it was installed.

Have you considered contacting the owner of that one about leasing time on yours? If the agreement is done properly it could be a work-around for the lack of ISO paper on the wall.

The manufacturer might have some suggestions as well.

 

[ctopher]

You can rent it to machine shops to use, keep it running.
You can eventually pick up work from renters. I have done it.

Chris, CSWA
SolidWorks 14
SolidWorks Legion

 

[ornerynorsk]

Bean counter thinking. A machine running parts of any kind, even at a reduced rate, is generating revenue. You're not doubling the rate of pay for 5 axis operators, I'm presuming? A machine sitting idle is losing money, not just maintaining status quo. You are paying to store it, even if it's tucked away in a corner "out of the way", there is some value in that storage space, and the machine continues to depreciate in value. A foot in the door running less complex parts can always lead to other things, it keeps the network active.



It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

 

[fastline12]

Machine was purchased for a long run contract that is now complete, thus "paid for". It was needed for that contract and was assumed (and rather reasonable I think) that future work could be found. I think I might question the current market state in the US right now. Concerns me a bit but really would only take one reasonable job or customer to keep this machine around.

My only fight to keep it is I just know we are going to stumble into a need for it as soon as it is sold! the replacement costs are MUCH higher than keeping it. But boss is paying storage and not seeing things down the road.

I really makes me wonder how to even market such ability rather than phone calls.... Work seemed easier to find a decade ago.

 

[MintJulep]

Are you over-constraining yourself by seeking only work that requires large and accurate?

There is a whole universe of large things that require machining without great precision.

Big castings such as pump casings, engine blocks, turbine casings, electric motor frames.

Fabrications for railroad truck frames, bridges, flood control gates.

 

[racookpe1978]

Check very, very closely your assumptions about both the cost of complying with the certifications - and there are definitely costs - and the (now obvious!) cost of losing business by NOT complying with the certifications. Many sub-contracting shops cannot even submit credible bids on providing machined parts without a certification program because the entire assembly needs to meet ISO or TQM or some other recognized QA "letter grade" compliance.

 

[fastline12]

I think that is in the shorter term goals, to get AS9102 certification as it also blankets ISO cert and we do some aerospace stuff as well.

The core issue we found is the cert really does not gain you a thing as still staying a sub-tier mfgr, and to gain top-tier approvals gets even more difficult as each OEM will have a list and that list usually requires, big/nice/expensive/new building, machines, inspection equipment, etc. The list goes on.

I have already heard all the claims of new means better parts are being made but just not the case. Our parts still end up in OEM assemblies everyday! It just becomes an image thing I am afraid. This shop is older but we take our inspections and quality very seriously.

 

[btrueblood]

So, the machine is paid for...why, as ornery points out, are you not running lower-cost parts on it and keeping it generating revenue? One of the beauties of a large multi-axis is the ability to pallet multiple small parts on fixtures, and crank out many more parts per hour than can smaller mills doing one part at a time. You just need to be willing to spend money on fixturing...but that's another thing the machine could be making for you. And a machine sitting idle on the shop floor waiting for a job is not costing anything more than one sitting in a warehouse, square feet are square feet. If it was me, I wouldn't even tell the boss, just wander off to the warehouse, get an electrician to wire it up and let it crank out parts.

 

[HDS]

Look at the parts you are already running that would have fewer setups if done on a 5 axis. This would give you a savings on existing jobs.

There are places like MFG.com or quickparts that will feed you work for a commission.

 

[tbuelna]

I think that is in the shorter term goals, to get AS9102 certification as it also blankets ISO cert and we do some aerospace stuff as well

AS9102 is a standard form/process for performing a first article inspection of a component in the aerospace sector. There is no certification required for performing an FAI, but the facilities and equipment used for the FAI need to meet specific standards (such as calibration, environmental controls, etc).

If you wish to serve as a supplier to an aerospace OEM then you'll need to get an AS9100 certification, which can involve quite a bit of time, effort and expense. In addition to AS9100, most aerospace OEMs also require their suppliers to develop in-house capabilities to perform work conforming to the OEMs specific practices, including functions like engineering, manufacturing, accounting, etc. This can be a huge cost burden for a small business, and unless the OEM is sending lots of work, the expense may not be justifiable.

 

[Sparweb]

Maybe it's hiring an operator that puts the brakes on for management. Salary, benefits, training, and so on... Different companies have different attitudes.

I personally believe that making the tools dull keeps the wits sharp. Taking break-even work is acceptable, when it keeps both the operator and the machine in good condition, and ready for the gem when it comes along. Much better than dragging it all out of mothballs in a panic and finding "some guy" to run it on short notice.


STF