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Learn the Surprising Truth about Plastics & The Environment 5

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In the book The Plastics Paradox I quote Winston Churchill who said "Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time..."
The same can be said of plastics.
There is no perfect material, so we have to pick the one that does least harm.
Lifecycle analysis is the only accepted way to do that and it shows that plastic is usually the least harmful choice.
If saplanti really did believe in doing no damage then they would be living in a cave, not typing on a plastic keyboard attached to a computer made of plastic connected with wires insulated with plastic.
Instead of actually reading the data saplanti would rather argue without the facts. That leads nowhere as we have seen.


Chris DeArmitt PhD FRSC
President

Plastic materials consultant to the Fortune 100 - As seen on CBS 60 Minutes, BBC & Sky News
Creating New Materials - Problem Solving - Innovation Keynotes - Expert Witness
 
Gentleman,

I did not say that Demon3 was right. If you think he is, that is your view.

Starting from the first post to this, I was trying to say that there is a sustainable way. Particularly for the plastic case, instead of producing the plastics from the petrol origin we need to recycle the available and reuse. Waste accumulation is becoming bigger every day.

His claim was that this recycling was expensive, and he wanted to use the petrol origin to make plastics. However,I guess, he does not keep his waste with him and accumulate next to him either.

My question in this case was what to do with plastic waste, bury them? He does not get involve in this discussion. How about you? Do you want to bury the used plastics or damp in the the water stream?

I hope this clarifies everything if I did not misunderstand you in the discussion.

I suggest everyone to watch Michael Mooore’s documentary “Planet of the Human” if you can spare time:


 
Plastic waste can be burned for power generation.
 
saplanti - you said we need to reuse and reycle. Yes, it says that in the book and on the website.
It is hard to make a profit recycling plastics because they are so cheap. Ironically, they are so cheap because they are so green (low energy, water etc used to make them).
Plastics are about 10% of landfill waste and under 0.5% of all waste. Plastics are proven to have dramatically decreased waste.
All of this is on the website. Why not look?

Chris DeArmitt PhD FRSC
President

Plastic materials consultant to the Fortune 100 - As seen on CBS 60 Minutes, BBC & Sky News
Creating New Materials - Problem Solving - Innovation Keynotes - Expert Witness
 
Your link says the problem has been solved:

"Burning plastic creates harmful dioxins and if incinerators are inefficient, these leak into the environment. Modern incinerators are said to have largely solved this problem."

Then it spouts this nonsense:

"The consultancy Eunomia says plastics burned in incinerators set up to generate only electricity create heat at 25% efficiency. This is much lower than the 55% efficiency for new gas-fired power stations."

Firstly, conventional plants can far exceed 25% efficiency. But, plastics can certainly be used in the more efficient combined cycle plants but not as the primary fuel. It would be used in place of duct burners.

Plastics would replace much dirtier coal fuel.
 
I think you compare incinerators and conventional plants. If you add the plastics to the conventional plants first the low quality of the addition fuel second need for large amount of steam cleaning in various stages of the boilers which will reduce the efficiency a lot.

Additionally the BBC link says that the problem largely solved. It does not say entirely unfortunately.
 
Plastics wouldn't be a primary fuel. They would be injected in a controlled manner in to the furnace, even if only 1% of the total fuel load, a large plant burns so much fuel it could make a significant dent in the waste plastic supply. For coal plants, the plastics could literally be mixed in with the feed. Gas plants would obviously require some modification.

Keep in mind, were talking non-halogenated plastics here. Dioxins are only produced when combusting halogenated plastics such as PVC.
 
Exactly, you can only talk about the coal plant. However even the coal plant would not mix the plastics into their coal in any stage because it will stick onto the surfaces, and it will corrode the materials faster and it will increase the toxic fumes more. World is trying to get rid of the coal plants due to the environmental issues and the climate change as well.

I forgot to say that all the countries cannot, will not built those plants just for plastics since they already have working plants. So they will use incinerators the most to burn plastics.

Therefore the BBC article says the plastics should be recycled and reused.
 
Saplanti, please explain the source of toxic fume or acid gasses from the combustion of waste plastics such as polyethylene, polypropylene, PET, polycarbonate, polyester, vinyl, polyamide, ABS, etc?

Yes, plastics such as PVC and PTFE would need to be separated from the waste stream which should be relatively easy to minimize as they are used for durable goods and not the waste generating packaging type plastics.

If you're worried about it sticking to things, inject it as a slurry with water. That will keep it cool enough until it's in the furnace to keep it from getting gooey.
 
You're correct TugboatEng. They have proven that mixed plastics give as much heat energy as oil or coal and they they burn cleanly. It's all shown with proof in the book for free but saplanti would rather ignore the evidence. It's a shame.


Chris DeArmitt PhD FRSC
President

Plastic materials consultant to the Fortune 100 - As seen on CBS 60 Minutes, BBC & Sky News
Creating New Materials - Problem Solving - Innovation Keynotes - Expert Witness
 
TagboatEng,

When you talk about separation of PVC and PTFE you talk about recycling, separation, and perhaps reuse. This is hidden behind your discussion, and I agree on that.

The toxicity with burning is given with the following article in detail;


I guess i did share this earlier as well.

Talking about burning plastics in the large boilers;

If I was a boiler operator I would immediately reject this option since the boilers are designed for the certain fuel with the high efficiency. If you change the fuel you will not be able to get the same efficiency, additionally you have to clean the sticky staff in the exhaust gas on the superheaters, economiser and perhaps on the preheater with plastic addition in the furnace. These are already problem areas due to exhaust gas chemistry, coal quality, materials, and efficiency.
Plastic burning is going to make everything worse than burning fuel oil number 6 which the plant surrounding residential people always had health problem.
I do not want even mention the health problems on the people by the coal burning in power boilers. Think about very high concrete chimneys. They are taken down one by one lately believe or not.

To burn plastics you need either special incinerator or an incinerator burning all common waste. The efficiency of these already given in the BBC article.

The following, “The Recycled Plastics Market: Global Analysis and Trends. CSIRO, Australia.”, gives a good picture on the plastics recycling, good to read;


 
Of course there would have to be some engineering done prior to just putting plastic in the furnace. The plastic should be broken down completely in the furnace and should never reach the generating tubes or further in the boiler. This is true for any fuel.

I only mentioned coal plants because their design already accommodates granular or pelletized fuel.

Also, the plastics' chemistry can be optimized for burning during manufacture to eliminate any hazardous products.

This is a solution for the future, not the present.
 
PE and PP are the most common plastics. They are hydrocarbons that burn with the same energy output as oil and as cleanly. It's all in the book with proof.

Chris DeArmitt PhD FRSC
President

Plastic materials consultant to the Fortune 100 - As seen on CBS 60 Minutes, BBC & Sky News
Creating New Materials - Problem Solving - Innovation Keynotes - Expert Witness
 
I work in the polymer industry, while I used to work in the marine industry. The ocean is massively polluted by polymer waste. The waste is harmful to almost all forms of ocean life. Without healthy oceans, we all die.

This post is entirely self serving. Claiming that there is no ocean gyre discounts every other point that may hold a grain of truth in your statement.
 
subsearobot: I cannot understand why you insist not misrepresenting what I said (as anyone can see by looking at the thread).
The gyres are not floating islands of plastic. That is proven beyond doubt and the evidence was presented There are areas with more plastic. They contain up to 5g of plastic per Olympic Pool of water as measured for decades by teams of scientists.
I also present huge scientific studies on turtle, whale and bird mortalities and plastics are not listed at all as a cause.
Here are the studies: I am a leading independent scientist who spent 1000 hours unpaid to check the science because we can only make progress if we start with facts.
I am disappointed that you claim to care about the environment but you insist on not looking at the science and on casting slurs at me.
Here is the science for people who want to help save our planet - The Great Plastics Distraction Part 2
Chris DeArmitt PhD FRSC
President

Plastic materials consultant to the Fortune 100 - As seen on CBS 60 Minutes, BBC & Sky News
Creating New Materials - Problem Solving - Innovation Keynotes - Expert Witness
 
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