Leaving first job? 15

[badgerdave]

I'm thinking about leaving my first job. The benefits are a little lacking and the commute is starting to take it's toll (more on my car than me)

I was wondering if anyone has any advice for how to carry this out.

Should I tell my employer that I'm looking?

Can I use them as a reference?

If I need to take a half day to interview, what should I say?

Thanks,

Dave

 

[KENAT]

"Should I tell my employer that I'm looking?" Almost certainly not, unless you think you have leverage over them to improve you benefits or get them to move their place of work closer to your residence etc.. However, if it's your first job, then unless you've been there a long time and are the key technology guy or something (which given the naivety of your questions I doubt) you have no leverage.

"Can I use them as a reference?" Well, as this amounts to the same as your first point hopefully you can interpolate my opinion.

"If I need to take a half day to interview, what should I say?" um, how about "I'll be taking a half day on MM/DD/YYYY".

I'd find your new fire before you jump out of your current frying pan.

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[dvd]

If you are like everybody else, then you should do what everybody else does; if not, then do what seems right. You don't suggest the normal method of looking for a job while employed, but exceptional people don't always do things the standard way. If you are able to make do without a job for a while (in the event that your employer decides to fire you), then, I say, do as you suggest. Don't conform if you don't have to. There are lots of ways to measure success, and in the end your opinion matters most.

 

[MikeHalloran]

FIRST, get a new job.

DO NOT TELL ANYONE, or even hint, that you are looking.

THEN, give two weeks notice with your written resignation.
Be prepared to work hard and honestly for those two weeks.
Be prepared to be escorted out the door immediately.
It could go either way; do not take offense.
Say your goodbyes to your coworkers just before turning in your resignation.

DO NOT tell anyone why you are leaving. If an 'exit interview' is demanded, say nothing, or as close to it as you can. You cannot help anyone by talking, but you can hurt yourself, so just don't.

DO NOT tell anyone where you are going. It's none of their business, and it's not beneath some managers to attempt to spoil your deal.




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[MadMango]

Just to hammer the nail home...
1. Don't tell anyone you are looking. If you've started already, stop.
2. You shouldn't use anyone as a reference without first asking them. See 1 above.
3. If you need time off, take it. If asked the reason, tell them it is personal. See 1 above.
4. When you resign, your letter should be very basic, "I am tending my resignation. My last day of employment will be dd/mm/yy."
5. Be professional, succinct, and do not burn any bridges.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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[JoeChem]

A star for you Mike - excellent advice.

First post I've ever seen that describes the correct way to move on from existing employment.

Employment is nothing more than a business deal - once either side finds it to be less than satifactory it is time to consider moving on.

Resignation letters should be short and sweet as well. Only two complete sentences are required. The first stating your intention to leave and the second your last date of employment. Thats it. Period.

I still cannot believe how many postings I have read where lengthy "Dear John" resignations are recommended complete with detailed descriptions of company problems/issues and suggestions for improvements.

As if HR will be thumbing their way through former employee records looking for solutions to problems and on top of that happen to find your file full of helpful hints...

Anyway, best of luck to you.

JoeChem

 

[MortenA]

I agree with Mike in just about everything except the last statement: Dont tell anyone where you are going. In most circumstances i think this is being overly cautious, and would seem very wierd.

And as with the rest: You cant expect anyone to keep silent unless they are year old friends not only colleagues (and even then...). So if you tell some of you colleagues then the rest will know pretty soon.

But for the rest: Keep quite, make excuses, dont tell, dont refernce dont...

Best regards

Morten

 

[PicoStruc]

Stupid question ...

But how do you prevent the employers that interviewed you to call you current employers ?

 

[Jboggs]

Ask them not to. In fact, maybe that phrase should be on your resume.

I had a boss once that received MY resume in a general mailing from a head hunter. Not a good day.

 

[StevenHPerry]

I had a boss once that received MY resume in a general mailing from a head hunter. Not a good day.

What about a recruiter calling you to see if you're interested in working for your current company, in a role that sounds a lot like yours, in the same location, but for much higher pay? That was a bad day, but it also nagged at me for several months until I finally left. The boss disavowed any knowledge of the recruiter when I asked about it after resigning.

I hope recruiters were better once upon a time. My experience with them over the past several years has been almost exclusively bad. One even suggested that a certain highly unethical act would be a-okay, because, as he wrongly thought, the injured party would not find out who did it.

- Steve Perry

http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevenhperry

This post is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. It is offered with the understanding that the author is not engaged in rendering engineering or other professional service. If you need help, get help, and PAY FOR IT.

 

[lacajun]

People always talk so if you want your intentions to get around, by all means, tell others.

An engineer told the department blabber mouth he was leaving long before he tendered his resignation. Said engineer disliked me vehemently because I am no mousy woman. Said engineer didn't tell me squat, as usual, which was OK with me.

Said engineer saw blabber mouth in my office with the door closed. Blabber mouth was talking. I was listening with my mouth shut. Blabber mouth left my office. My mouth remained shut understanding the sensitivity of the situation and I had no desire to compromise him. It's his job to tell management of his plans not mine.

Soon thereafter, I heard from a salesman, who is also a good friend, that said engineer was leaving. I said nothing. Still no announcement from said engineer to management. My mouth remained shut.

I heard from a designer said engineer was leaving. This time I let the designer know I'd heard from two other people but not said engineer so I wouldn't repeat anything of his plans. Said engineer used designer as a sounding board in pursuit of new job. Designer felt comfortable telling me knowing I wouldn't say a word. Still no announcement from said engineer to management about his imminent departure. My mouth remained shut.

Rumor got back to said engineer that he was departing and to which company and where. He still had not informed management of his plans. I never received such a lambasting of false accusations ever in my life from anyone. I should have decked said engineer but he was too dense anyway.

Each person who told me had heard his story directly from him, which I let him know in email. No one needed to say anything because he was doing a great job all by himself of telling everyone he knew. He was also pretty stupid for telling the department blabber mouth. He never responded.

Said engineer didn't last long at the new company and returned to old company. Said engineer told a female engineer some stuff about me. She repeated what he said to me. I sent him another email reminding him of his previous mistake blaming me for his own loose mouth and that he had not learned at two important lessons: 1.) Keep your mouth shut and 2.) People always repeat what you say. He never responded. He's a mousy man.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[badgerdave]

Thanks for all the good advice, I've got an interview for Monday already. =]

My concern was that since it's my first job, I don't really have much else for references. But so far it seems like just having had a job is appealing to potential new employers.

A couple more questions:

What's the difference between an applications engineer and a design engineer? In terms of day to day duties, responsibilities, and, of course, salary? I have a design background, does taking an applications engineer position look bad if I were to leave and come back to design?

Recruiters: I posted a new resume on Monster and Career Builder and have gotten a bunch of calls from recruiters already. Do you usually just choose a couple to work with? Pros/Cons when working with recruiters?

Thanks a lot everyone!
Dave

 

[GregLocock]

Applications engineers is taking something that exists and working with customers- so it can be more like a sales job. Design varies, it can mean designing, it can mean project managing the design process, or it can be a glorified releasing clerk's job.

In general it is worth getting exposure too severla different jobs, but I think once you are in sales/applications moving back into a design job may be tricky.



Cheers

Greg Locock


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[MadMango]

Design- getting to create something new, starting with a clean piece of paper.
Applications- making something work where is wasn't meant to work due to Sales or Marketing.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?

 

[Metalhead97]

Dave,

#1 Do NOT tell anybody you are leaving till you get that offer.
#2 Do NOT slack-off the last two weeks you are there.
#3 Do NOT be timid about handing in your resignation letter. Keep it positive!
#4 Above all your current employer would let you go without a warning to protect the bottom line. So protect your bottom line!

MH

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Above all your current employer would let you go without a warning to protect the bottom line.

40+ years ago that wasn't nearly the same issue as it is today (or so I hear ;-))... today it's just a sad fact of life.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[fast4door]

Dave,

Regarding recruiters, keep in mind they are never entirely on your side. When they place someone, they get a lump sum which is generally a percentage of the annual pay of the placed person. In other words, engineer at $60k/year will net the recruiter a one time payment of, say 5% or $3k. Those numbers are just guesses, perhaps others can verify. So the takeaway is that they're working for that commission, not necessarily looking for the best company for you. I recommend only using recruiters for maybe 10% of your job search.

The remaining 90% should be you networking to find actual human hiring managers. DO NOT use internet job postings as the only way to find your next job. To learn how to network, read Bob Beaudine's book The Power of Who. Basically, when you are selling yourself (and you are a product), reach out to your circle of friends who care about you and will be willing to help. Contrast that to cold-calling some dude you found on Linkedin. Basically, find a company you are interested in, then go ask people at your church, for instance, if they know anyone there. Don't ignore Facebook, either - which is a perfect example of why you should never have work colleagues as Facebook friends.

One other point about hiring managers: they generally don't actually do their own job searches. They pass it to HR, and HR really don't know enough about the field to find good people. At my last job we had an open Design Engineer role for several months in 2010. Yes, we were hiring after the recession. And HR told us repeatedly, for months, they couldn't find any qualified candidates. This was in Minneapolis, a metro area with 3 million people in it. And they couldn't find ONE. So you need to find the guy who knows the hiring manager. And you have to find someone who will tell the hiring manager that you're awesome. And then you need to be awesome.

Good luck.

Nick

 

[Compositepro]

I suppose it depends on how high-level the job is, but recruiter commission is more on the order of 20% of annual salary for executive recruiters.

 

[KENAT]

Beyond what other say, Applications jobs sometimes involve a lot more travel/field time.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[MacGyverS2000]

And contractors get even more... I've seen the contracts, and the companies typically make around 50% (give or take) of the employees hourly rate, plus a stright fee if/when the person goes full-time off of the contract. Kind of sickening, IMO...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com