Leaving my employer and taking others with me - unethical? 1

[JennyNakamura]

I work for a firm with a small structural department (4 structural engineers and one drafter). We also have similarly small civil, electrical, and construction management departments. Everyone in the company is not happy with the fact that no one has had a raise in 5 years and no kind of bonus whatsoever. Yet, the president of the company has been hiring a new person every month for the past 4 months. I have never not had a yearly raise and at least a very small bonus at least once a year in the 12 years prior to joining this firm 5 years ago.

I have been offered to start up a structural department at a local civil engineering firm with an excellent reputation. They have offered me $15,000 a year more, and since I will be heading the structural department I have been given freedom to bring anyone I want with me. For the time being, that would be one other structural engineer and one structural designer.

I want to bring two people from my current employer. On one hand, I don't want to leave my current employer in a bad situation with 3 people from the same department leaving at the same time. But on the other hand, if everyone was happy at my current employer they wouldn't all be looking for other jobs (which they are).

Would leaving my current employer and taking 2 others with me be unethical???

Thanks in advance.

 

[IRstuff]

I think it's a mistake to post with your real name, if that's what it is. You offer jobs and they accept; that's not "stealing" in the strict sense. These people have free will and are not slaves. So long as you are not poaching clients or bringing IP with you, there's not much that unethical, unless you are violating an employment contract.

TTFN
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[berkshire]

If you want to be on the up and up about this , leave and take the job, then get your employer to post an advertisement for the other two jobs.
B.E.

 

[msquared48]

Jenny:

In light of the economy and what we all went through, I am not surprised you have not had a raise or bonus in the last 5 years. You do have a job though. That is good.

As for the ethics, don't burn your bridges. If you want to leave, then YOU leave, and let others make their own choices.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[beej67]

Take the job. Post the offers. Interview multiple people. If your two buds from the old company end up the two best people, hire them. Be open and honest with your old employer about leaving. You don't need his permission to hire other folks out from under him. In fact, once you leave he might seriously start looking at upping your friend's salaries.

Make damn sure you're not taking any IP with you. Proposals / etc. I would go so far as to rebuild any spreadsheets you routinely use. That's the primary way your old employer can get back at you legally.

I'm interested to hear other's opinions on how best to legally and ethically take some of your former employer's clients with you. I've never been in that situation before, and don't intend to be, but I know others that have, and that gets a lot stickier.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[TheTick]

Ethics is rarely black-and-white. I would call this "dark grey".

Many elements of non-compete agreements are not enforceable. However, the clauses about not scalping coworkers usually are. Ethics or not, the legal trouble could be real. Read the fine print on your contract.

 

[TenPenny]

Make sure that YOUR employment offer for the new place does not mention or require you to bring others with you. In other words, make sure that it is a clean offer to hire you and you only.

If some of your co workers discover on their own that there are openings, and decide to go after them, that's unrelated to you and your plans.

Make sure you keep these things separate and distinct from each other. And make sure you do not discuss this during work hours at your present place. If they ask, you can always say, 'Once I'm there, I'll see what is available' kind of thing.

 

[JedClampett]

I guess I don't see this as any more unethical than:

You: I'm leaving in two weeks. I have another job.
Co-Worker: Really?
You: They're building a _______ department and there might be other openings.
Co-Worker: Would they be interested in me?
You: Very possibly! You ought to apply.

The only caution is that "raiding" can be a two way street. And what goes around comes around.

 

[Ron]

As others have noted...do not "plan" to leave and take others with you. As Mike said, leave and let the others decide on their own.

Don't pass up the opportunity if it is as good as you describe.

As for taking clients....if you have a "following", they will follow you. Be low key in soliciting business from clients that were developed by your employer. If you developed those clients, then you have free reign to keep in touch with them.

If you signed a non-compete agreement or any other proprietary agreement, honor it.

 

[SAITAETGrad]

The advice above is for the most part very good.

Since you are not a director of your current employer, you don't have a strict fiduciary duty to put the company's interests ahead of your own. That does not, however, free you entirely from any contractual obligations that may exist. Even if in place, some contractual obligations are probably not enforceable by law or practicality - so there is some relief there. It is very clear that poaching clients while you are still employed would lead to tort liability as these are confidential. Once your employment ends, however, you are usually limited to protecting trade secrets and legally old clients are fair game (barring a specific restrictive covenant clause). It seems reasonable the same would be true with respect to the employees. If you have any doubts, get professional legal advice.

In this case as describe, if your legal obligations are met, I would say your ethical obligations are also met. It is not seen as unethical for employers to routinely lay off workers for modest gains in fiscal performance so you should not feel a cavernous obligation to remain forever faithful to your employer or past employer.

A few posters have mentioned "burning bridges" and the potential for reprisals. You will need to weigh your personal tolerance for those costs. Acting "with honour" is a wonderful, quaint idea and the value of that is also for you to decide. For myself, it would not be something I would consider except under very exceptional circumstances. I would see the risks to reputation too great when the long view is considered. I would treat employees of close competitors exactly the same.

Now, if a potential employee approaches you - that is very different. I would definitely take full advantage of that. But, I would still follow up with a courtesy call to the past employer or competitor to explain the situation (once the employment is offered/accepted and notice given). If they can't accept that and hold a grudge - then they are just troglodytes.

I hold the above is applicable if you are running a neighborhood bar or a fortune 500 corporation.

 

[moltenmetal]

You should feel free to leave with no ethical qualms. You should have left long ago. Whether they survive or not as a business ceases to be your concern the moment you leave. If they cared to keep you, presumably you gave them plenty of opportunities to repair your situation. If you sat there silently the whole time without voicing your displeasure just to keep your job, then shame on you- how did you expect them to know? Can they read minds? But it's still their problem: any idiot should know that if they try to grow their business without properly compensating their existing employees, some of those folks are going to leave- and it'll be the best of them, not the worst- that's business 101.

I agree with the others:

1) Do not accept the job if the acceptance is based on your responsibility to recruit other colleagues. You can build a team of your own without taking theirs.

2) Get your own job first, then post job ads for the required positions.

3) If you are contractually restricted from recruiting former colleagues, then don't be involved in that in any way. If not, you should still keep your distance from the process to preserve the relationship. But it should not stop your new employer from recruiting your former colleagues in an open competition. Presumably your colleagues have LinkedIn profiles, correct? If not, encourage them (privately) to get one so you can keep in touch (even if they don't end up working for you, they're presumably colleagues worth staying in contact with). Your new employer will find that a convenient and secure way to contact them.

Best of luck to you.

 

[eranyan]

I would say: Don't do to others what you wouldn't others do to you
Would you be happy if someone have done that to you?
Also taking with you the other 2 guys will put in risk your current employer. The own that you owe your experience and help till now. You don't do such things. Such deeds will probably return to harm you in the future somehow..
So leave, but don't grab the others with you

 

[josephv]

There is also a legal question which your new company's lawyer would best handle if you decide to take the job:

Is it Legal to Poach a Competitor's Employees?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011...com2011-freeenterprise-idUS159854584220110430

As for Ethics, rather than leaving it to someonelse's interpretation you should refer to your jurisdiction's code of Ethics and possibly contact the engineering regulator in your location. Here is the one from NSPE as a reference:

http://www.nspe.org/Ethics/CodeofEthics/index.html