Levees in New Orleans 13

[livingston]

After Hurricane Katrina hit Lousiana, more destruction is occurring because of levee failures around the city. Does this mean the factor of safety was too low, they were old, what? They seem to be failing at the purpose for which they were designed. Please explain.

 

[aspearin1]

Man against Nature. Predicting the brunt of a natural disaster is a crap shoot. The levees are failed... or have they? I see the levees as being successful if they allow evacuation of the area. Without the levees, there's no telling what that body count could be.

ChemE, M.E. EIT
"The only constant in life is change." -Bruce Lee

 

[vooter]

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/083005cccawwlunwatering.45718845.html

 

[Zapster]

Thanks for the link Vooter, “Q.3. Why only Category 3 protection? A.3. That is what we were authorized to do.”

My experience with the USACE is, such that, they make design decisions/indecisions by committee where it is next to impossible to find a culpable individual or department. No one has any legal responsibility for the consequences of the action/inaction of the agency or themselves. So I can say that there is little chance of finding the responsible party for the misguided authorization. The problem I have with this issue is that when I work I am financially responsible for my decisions and actions. When an USACE engineer work, I am again financially responsible for their actions (through my tax dollars). I am disgusted with the waste of resources that goes to this agency. And in addition, the lack of accountability that the USACE employees believe they are an entitlement to.

 

[JAE]

I heard an explanation as to why this particular storm was so bad on New Orleans.

Initially, Katrina was headed directly for NO and then altered somewhat to the east at the last minute. The counter-clockwise turning of the storm sent winds headed in a northwesterly direction (from SE to NW)which sent a strong storm surge of water right into Lake Pontchatrain (sp?). Then, as it slipped by the east side, the CCW winds became northerly winds (from the north to the south) and began pushing all that water directly toward the city from the lake.

So its seems that the specific orientation of the storm track was the worst possible for the NO layout.

 

[livingston]

So when everything is repaired, will it be restored to withstand a category 3 or reenforced for a category 4? My guess would be category 3 as that is all the are 'authorized' for currently.

 

[SlideRuleEra]

There will be a lot of serious thought given to what to do about New Orleans. On CNN this morning a former mayor said that it could become "a modern day Pompeii", he may be right.

The property insurance aspects of will probably be the deciding factor. Commerical insurance only covers hurricane wind damage. Flood insurance is covered by policies backed solely by the Federal Government. All of the "new" damage in New Orleans, beginning August 30, is flood damage. Floods historically reoccur, and now there will be a "real" muli-billion dollar pricetag on flooding in New Orleans. Will there be a National decision to subsidize reconstruction of New Orleans? I don't know.

I do know that in my state, South Carolina, rebuilding/replacing structures on sites that have been proven to be "water damage prone" in hurricanes is severly restricted.

http://www.SlideRuleEra.net

 

[sms]

That is a good point Slideruleera, the design for windforce is not the issue, when they said it was designed for a Cat 3 hurricane, that was based on the expected storm surge in a Cat 3, which is basically a swag. Every storm is different and you won't know how much storm surge will happen until it happens.

Houston found out in tropical storm Allison that a lot of flooding can happen without much wind. When you get 20 inches of rain in a day, and you live on a bayou, flooding is going to happen.

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

 

[vooter]

"So when everything is repaired, will it be restored to withstand a category 3 or reenforced for a category 4? My guess would be category 3 as that is all the are 'authorized' for currently."

Just remember that the "authorization" made it "illegal" to use anything more than a category 3 in the design level of protection. Flood control projects are cost-shared between the locals (state, town, etc.) and the Feds. Even if it costs the locals ten cents on the dollar, they're going to scream poverty. On top of that, their representative(s) have to fight for enough funding and sometimes they'll have to compromise just to get some money. On the USACE side, you have to obey what Congress authorizes you to do. It might be pollitically suicidal to support a zillion dollar project for a cat 4, when you can "get away" with the million dollar project for cat 3. Is the risk worth it? Depends...

Bottom line: any public works project will have its critics on both sides, it's too much, it's too little, why do it at all? The Government shouldn't be involved in this stuff. Charity begins at home... yada-yada-yada.

And on top of that, you have a project manager who has a schedule and money that has to get spent...

AND DON'T FORGET THAT THERE IS A VERY GOOD POSSIBILITY THAT THE USACE DISTRICT IN CHARGE OF THE PROJECT FARMED IT OUT TO A PRIVATE COMPANY. Awarding A/E contracts is a big part of the Corps' business process...

 

[BJC]

My experience is that USACE makes good decision and is a pretty good engineering outfit. Vooter is coorect in that they are a big conduit for pork. It flows from congress to pork reciepients via the corp.
They know how to build a levee system. New Orleans voted 75 % for Democrats in the last two electrions, they probably wern't due any pork.

 

[BitTwiddler]

The real problem is that Congress is using the public treasury as a slush fund to buy votes in the districts of its leaders instead of allocating resources to solve real problems.

Look at the most recent law which funds major civil engineering projects, the $286+ billion SAFTEA-LU transportation bill.

The chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee is Don Young, the sole representative from Alaska. More than $200 million will be spent to build a bridge to Gravina Island in Alaska, which has only 50 residents. More than $200 million will be spent to build another bridge which will be named Don Young's Way. The full name of the bill is the Safe, Flexible, Efficient Transportation Equity Act: A Legacy for Users. Don Young's wife is named Lu.

Citizens Against Government Waste, a watchdog group, estimates that the transportation bill funded $24 billion of special projects, which means over 8 percent of that budget went to pork.

"This transportation bill is one of the biggest boondoggles in the history of federal spending," said Tom Schatz, the group's president.

Tonight, the corpses of hundreds of poor people who could not afford to leave are floating in New Orleans because the floodwalls have failed.

Is building Don Young's Way in Alaska instead of building floodwalls in New Orleans the proper way to "promote the general welfare"?

This is one reason why American kids don't become engineers. Nobody listens to us. Who wants to volunteer to be a doormat?

Will anyone be surprised if Congress holds hearings next month and calls the Corps of Engineers on the carpet to explain why they were "negligent" enough to allow New Orleans to flood? Don Young will probably lead the witch hunt. He's the Chairman of the "Infrastructure" committee.

The Corps of Engineers should recommend that the $24 billion of projects identified as pork in SAFTEA-LU should be cancelled. The money saved should then be spent to build levees and seawalls and restore wetlands around New Orleans.

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050815/OPINION02/508140328

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Politics/story?id=994308

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-07-29-roadpork_x.htm

 

[Heckler]

Hurricane Katrina is being used to stir the Auburn Dam project here in the Sacramento region. I'm sure every city in the US that's built on a flood plain will be talking about this for years to come.

http://www.geoengineer.org/auburn.htm

http://sactax.org/auburndam/index.asp

 

[BillPSU]

Building levees to withstand a cat 4 or 5 hurricane would be almost impossible. If the storm surge had hit New Orleans the way it hit Biloxi the levees would have had to be 20' above sea level.
The death toll will probably be in the thousands before its over. Think about what would have happened if the the parts that are currently flooded had an additional 20' storm surge.

 

[CajunCenturion]

I think you're right BillPSU. Had the storm veered 10 miles to the west instead of 10 miles to the east at the last minute, the situation may have been much worse since instead of the water being blown south from Lake Ponchartrain, the storm surge would've come north from the Gulf. Further, there would probably have been more wind damage since winds on the east side of the eye are worse than the winds on the west side.

Then again, considering how horrifying it is, I'm not sure it could've been too much worse.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[bioengr82]

So if the feds pick up the flooding tab for whoever is insured, doesn't the percent of possible coverage go down for the property for each subsequent flooding until after x amount of floods, they will no longer insure anything?

Am I completely off base?

 

[BillPSU]

Flood insurance covers the damage and if it is rebuilt and destroyed by another flood and is insured it is covered again. On occasion the people are bought out and the the land cannot be built on. In certain areas the structures are on stilts or a berm high enough to avoid flooding. I know of one instance in Missouri where a complete town was moved out of the flood plane.
Flood insurance is heavily subsidized by the Feds. I have had flood insurance in the past but have never had to use it.

 

[BitTwiddler]

According to a veteran member of the Corps of Engineers, it would have cost $2.5 billion to install a system able to withstand a Category 5 storm.

"Often leading the chorus was Alfred C. Naomi, a senior project manager for the corps and a 30-year veteran of efforts to waterproof a city built on slowly sinking mud, surrounded by water and periodically a target of great storms."

"It would take $2.5 billion to build a Category 5 protection system, and we're talking about tens of billions in losses, all that lost productivity, and so many lost lives and injuries and personal trauma you'll never get over," Mr. Naomi said. "People will be scarred for life by this event."

That's a bit more than 10% of the $24 billion in pork in the civil engineering bill Congress passed less than a month ago.

Cancelling the two bridges that Chairman Young is going to build would pay for almost 20% of the cost of the system.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/01/national/nationalspecial/01levee.html

 

[EddyC]

I'm sure that we could argue for the rest of our lives on how the US government could best utilize its resources for the improvement of life in the USA and the world. Its also real easy to play Monday morning quarterback after things don't go the way that you intended.

 

[JTreglio]

EddyC

It's not Monday morning quarterbacking -- it's democracy. It's what we're supposed to do, hold our elected representatives up to scutiny, vote them out of office if they screw up. If we don't, they'll just continue to screw up.

Jim Treglio
Molecular Metallurgy, Inc.

 

[Zapster]

I assure you BitTwiddler that I did not vote for the type of government that is now thrown in my face, by the Federal Government, in Alaska. If anything, I can sympathize with the Native Americans that were double crossed in the lower 48 with treaties designed to steal their lands. In return for my vote for Statehood, the Federal Government, in a written contract gave the state 28% of the unreserved and unoccupied land in the state. In addition, the Statehood Act gave the state 90% profit of all mineral lease sales. Well, the federal government redefined the rules and the State of Alaska still has not received its 28% of the land, and all the while, the Feds have claimed vast acreage as parks to limit the choice of land that was guaranteed. Note that Feds claimed the additional lands as parks after the fact and thus limiting the State’s right to choose. The contract would never have been ratified by Alaskans provided we knew the shenanigans the Federal Government has been a party to. Sure we have 90% of what the Feds allow us to take to market in mineral wealth, but we are held hostage by Congress trying to limit access to our minerals that were guaranteed in the Statehood Act. Congress is trying to leverage the profits from ANWR for themselves so the State only can receive only 50% profits instead of 90%. So now the State is subject to extortion money just to get what was given us during Statehood.

BitTwiddler, if you knew the contract history of the State of Alaska, with the Federal Government, you would agree that we have been ripped off. If you don’t agree, either you are unaware of the contract history with the Federal Government or are a party to double deals. I am a financial conservative that fully appreciates every nickel we can legally high-jack from the US Government. I would much rather the Feds keep out of our affairs and stick to the Statehood deal as authored and intended by all parties in 1959, instead of Congressional appropriations coming into the State with all of the strings attached. So instead of focusing on the pork of the Transportation Bill, you should look at this in the full context of the State being financial rip-off by the Feds.

I can go on for pages discussing the Carpet Baggers and the clowns from the USACE that recklessly endangered and impacted my life in Alaska. These clowns (USACE) have come to my State and made countless problems. Sorry for the tirade but unless you have been here to witness the blunders by the USACE you cannot understand my perspective.