Levees in New Orleans 13

[livingston]

After Hurricane Katrina hit Lousiana, more destruction is occurring because of levee failures around the city. Does this mean the factor of safety was too low, they were old, what? They seem to be failing at the purpose for which they were designed. Please explain.

 

[bioengr82]

I'll admit that I don't know the accuracy of the telecast minute by minute. I still, however, fail to see how they are to shoulder any 'responsibility' for the disaster or response there to. If anything the media had warned in multiple written and broadcasted stories about the potential for disaster. As for the event coverage, I'd say it would be next to impossible to get everything right given the nature of the problem, logistics, etc. Again, if anything, the reports did more good than anything by shaming the government's inaction and prompting an expedited response.

I normally can't stand 'journal-tainment' but in this case I believe they did just fine. Even Fox news began to critize their golden boy 'W' and the feds for their slow reponse.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> Again, if anything, the reports did more good than anything by shaming the government's inaction and prompting an expedited response.
Actually I disagree, and I do have a good idea of the accuracy because I, along with family members from New Orleans, watched every minute of the coverage on that Monday. Upon hearing the initial reports, we were relieved, and somewhat hopeful about the outcome. There was a very noticable drop in the sense of urgency. Unfortunately, the initial reports were very wrong, and two of those family members lost everything. I do not consider giving people a false sense of hope doing just fine.

I don't blame the press for the ineptness of the governmental response. Even if the government (local, state, or federal - take your pick) relaxed somewhat from the initial reports, that would have, at most, made a difference of only a few hours.

But I do blame the press for contributing to the frustration because of their inability to get it right at the start.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[bioengr82]

O.K. I understand you may disagree with the coverage. But this discussion was about why and who was responsible for the leeves failure and governmental response.

Not to beat this into the ground but you stated:

"I also think the major news networks, especially FOX and CNN, both reporting live from downtown New Orleans, need to accept some degree of responsibility because in the first few hours after Katrina moved north of New Orleans, they were all reporting that New Orleans had been spared, that the storm had turned east at the last minute and that New Orleans again dodged a bullet. They were reporting that this was not "the big one". But I'll bet you'll never hear them say that. "

Saying the networks shoulder some reponsibility for either discussion topic is a silly statement at best.

 

[davefitz]

Regarding the option of not rebuilding NO:

There can probably be made an economic analysis which would show whether rebuilding is justified, as opposed to relocating the people and building a Walt Disney style bourbon street on higher ground.Its not likely to be the same , nor would future Mardi Gras be the same. But there are also a lot of other facilities equally affected by the potential of future flooding or hurricane damage. It will be interesting to see how the current admin allocates cost recoveries to their petroleum supporters vs the displaced poor (read: democrats) people.

The several refineries that were shuttered will always be potential candidates for future damage, as will the new LNG terminals scheduled for that area.

Similar damage had occured circa 1905 in Galveston Tx ( also by a hurricane) , but it is still used as a residential area. Its main source of economic damage was the 1952 laws that made it a dry town and made gampbling illegal- that hurt galveston more than the 1905 hurricane.

 

[SlideRuleEra]

After the 1900 Gavleston hurricane, the grade of the entire city was raised, and the famous sea wall was built. Link for general information:

http://www.1900storm.com/rebuilding/index.lasso

http://www.SlideRuleEra.net

 

[jmw]

One of the problems with any disaster like this is that the rebuilding often displaces the original inhabitants.
It is said that a significant portion of the areas affected are occupied by low income families.
If the rebuilding and inner city development projects elsewhere are anything to go by e.g. London Englans Covent Garden, The Canary Wharf development, Paliapolis Rhodos etc, what usually happens is that the poor folks have to live in bad conditions for decades and then, when some initiative provoked by whatever cause (from hurricanes, flooding, EU development money, re-election years etc) produces an influx of funding to put things right then the porr folk can no longer afford to live there.

SO the future for N.O. may also look bleak for some families. If/when they rebuild any portion of the city I'd be interested to see how many of the original inhabitants get to see some of the silver lining to every cloud.

I think Davefitz's comment on a "Walt Disney" style redevelopment has some merit, however after WWII in the UK a travesty of redevelopment meant that any bomb damaged houses could be pulled down and the sites re-developed. Bomb damage was interpreted pretty liberally and even a few tiles loose were sufficient to see some pretty characterful buildings demolished and replaced with "post war manic depressive" concrete utilitarian cubes. On the other hand, in Germany many buildings, towns and even cities were largely rebuilt exactly as they were before and even today we can see old building gutted and new structures errected within the skins of the old resulting in a modern building within a shell that retains its place in the cityscape.

So the appraoch to New Orleans has various directions to go and I can bet there will be no concensus.
Sure, a "Walt Disney" style reconstruction may initially appear to be a travesty in wiating but some of the alternatives are no better. But creating the right environment is a key element in trying to recapture the original spirit of the city and a recreation of the original may be a lot better than using this as an excuse to build new or build kitsch. Of course the key is to enable the people to return to the city as it is the people who generate the real spirit and this is why imention the history of other "good intentions".

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[BitTwiddler]

From NPR:

"Engineers and scientists are getting a better idea of exactly how the New Orleans area flooded. In addition to several breaks in the city's floodwalls, engineers now say the Ninth Ward in the eastern part of the city was hit by a huge wave coming over a levee."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4838668

 

[bioengr82]

I'm willing to bet the productive citizens of New Orleans will not lobby to rebuild the subsidized housing.

 

[BillPSU]

From my understanding flooding occurred in several different areas protected by various levees. St.Bernard parish was hit by a rogue wave as there was a barge 200-300 yards inland inside the levee. Orleans parish was flooded when the 17th street levee failed and another levee. St. Bernard parish was going to be under water with or without the pumps and levees. Orleans parish would have been spared if the levees had held while there would have been some flooding due to rain and waves.

 

[unclesyd]

On Sept 9 the official on line pumps including both fixed and portable were putting out 11,282 ft³/s or 5063713.2 gallons(US)/min. The immediate goal is to get to 14,500 ft³/s. COE stopped putting up technical information on their site and picked up on the spin put forth by the head office. I just hope that the initial time of 90 days wasn’t a number put out there to make the COE look good.
One of the large pumps(14') at pump station #6 was brought online yesterday and is being brought up to capacity slowly. They don't know what flow the canals can take without scouring the banks.
Supposedly the wave/waves came over the flood walls erected on top the dikes and eroded the dry banks allowing the flood wall to collapse and the rest is history.

There is an underlying problem of the natural seepage that has to be accounted for to the tune of 500,000 to 1,000,000 gals/day.

 

[GregLocock]

Well, a system that can handle 5 million gallons a minute will just be ticking over when the seepage is a million gallons a day.

I'm trying to wrap my head around a set of pumps that can move 25000 tons of water per minute, particularly since they were designed in the late 1800s. That'd bail out the Titanic in a couple of minutes!





Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[pmover]

sort of concur with davefitz comments . . .

my 2-cents worth . . .

pay each citizen of new orleans & flooded area 2 million bucks and abandon the city in place. certainly cheaper than rebuilding (assume 0.5 million population).

as far as the industry (oil & gas), these facilities can rebuild incorporating innovative storm surge designs to minimize future damage.

bitwiddler - the prudent option is to not vote financially irresponsible individuals into office, forceably remove the incompetent ones, or you may run for office yourself. i do not agree with "pork" spending and frankly perfer a system that allows for the taxpayers to decide, rather than the elected officials. yes, AK may rely heavily on fed gov (military strategic presence) funds for employment or otherwise, but i certainly have a hard time accepting a fed tax funded bridge used by a very small population.

i've no doubt that new orleans will be rebuilt, but at great expense to the taxpayers of the usa.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Yes, New Orleans will be rebuilt because it doesn't make economic sense not to rebuild it. The port of New Orleans is an integral, and the largest, part of the port of South Louisiana, which is the 4th busiest shipping port in the world handling almost 150 million tons of cargo per year.

It is especially cruciual to agriculture because of the amount of barge traffic up and down the Mississippi, which in New Orleans, is transferred to and from ocean freighters, not to mention grain elevators and other processing plants in and around the port of New Orleans. The harvest is rapidly approaching and if the port is not re-opened fairly soon, it will get very expensive. Storage costs, shipping cost, and processing costs will all be considerably higher, which will feed inflation across the country. Almost all USA agricultural exports flow through the Port of New Orleans, via the Mississippi river.

On the flip side, huge amounts of imported goods come through the Port of New Orleans where they are transferred onto barges for up-river shipping.

In will be far more expensive to not rebuild New Orleans.

Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[bioengr82]

If none of the agricultural products can be exported, won't food in the USA become less expensive?

 

[unclesyd]

No the goverenment will buy it up to support prices.

 

[CajunCenturion]

No, I don't think so. First of all, farmers are dependendant on crop exports and without that revenue stream, they would facing enconomic difficulties of their own, which I suspect would lead to tax-payer funded subsidies. Further, such action would adversly affects the existing trade imbalance. Secondly, you'd be incurring higher storage costs for the surplus crops would be higher.

And it is not just agricultural product exports. Tons of imports come through the Port of New Orleans, such as coffee, sugar, steel, and rubber which are used as raw materials to manufacturing processes. And of course, you've got the shipping of petro-chemical products shipped out to other parts of the country from New Orleans.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[BillPSU]

bioengr82
The price paid farmers has little to do with the price of food delivered to you and I. In a loaf of bread there is about $.05 of wheat. Assume the price of wheat drops in half you save $.025 per loaf or does the production system just absorb the price drop as additional profit.
When this savings occurs that additional farmers go belly up. By the way I live in Kansas the wheat state and have worked in Ag equipment for many years.

 

[bioengr82]

Thanks BillPSU.

I understand what you are saying, but will a closed New Orleans make agricultural products "very expensive"?

 

[CajunCenturion]

Yes, again, due to higher shipping and storage costs. Rather than shipping grain by barge down the Mississippi to New Orleans, grain would have to shipped by truck or by rail to most likely Houston. Shipping by rail and truck is considerably more expensive than by barge. Further, the port of Houston would need construction of the facilities to handle agricultural products, such as high capacity grain elevators. You can relocate the infrastructure, but can't relocate the Mississippi river, so shipping costs will always be considerably higher.

And again, that applies in both directions, and it's not just agricultural products. Exports from all over the heartland are barged to New Orleans predominately via the Ohio, Missouri, and Mississippi rivers. Similarly, imports coming into New Orleans are transferred to barges for shipping into the heartland. Almost 150 million tons of cargo pass through the Port of New Orleans annually.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[duck0601]

I think I have heard that there was a plan to reinvigorate the coastal marshes and barrier islands of southern Louisiana which may have mitigated the effects of Katrina. Has any one else heard of this and/or know if this plan is viable? It was along the lines of redirecting the flow of the Mississippi through old river patterns to reestablish the deposition of sediment.

Chris