Liability of designing dorm lofted beds 8

[cedarbluffranch]

I've been approached by a local university to create loft bed plans that they can provide to new students. I won't be making the beds themselves, just the plans.

What liability will I incur by doing this? How long will the liability last? How can I limit the liability?

 

[rbulsara]

Cedar:

No one is challanging or doubting your abilities. The question you asked, if you do the plans/design do you have the liability. The answer is Yes.

People have insurances, not because they are not qualified, but to protect against liabilities that can arise regardless of you are at fault or not.

 

[cedarbluffranch]

Actually, I never asked if I did incur liability. The question I asked was what liability do I incur (as in tort liability, contract liability, etc, and specifically how do I incur this liabiilty), how long does it last, and how can I limit it.

I understand that a person incurs some liability when we do anything. But I also understand that there are some things that we can do that are reasonable and wise and others that incur a huge potential amount of liability.

 

[rbulsara]

I give up!
Good Luck.

 

[cedarbluffranch]

Don't give up!

What I'm trying to ascertain from the various discussion on liability is to figure out exactly how and what I become liable for in the example of creating engineering drawings of dorm furniture. You can see examples all over the Internet by non-engineers, so either those people don't feel they incur liability or they never thought of it.

I understand that there is liability in what I do but if engineers let liability always stop them from being an engineer, we wouldn't be where we are today.

So my question goes a bit deeper than the obvious question of do I become liable. Ok, so I take on some liability but how signficant is it and what kinds of things can I do to reduce it?

What others have said is to choose clients carefully and pick low risk projects. I'm trying to decide if this is a low risk or high risk project. On one hand, I'd be providing the drawings to an unknown number of people which would increase risk. On the other hand, college students don't normally hire lawyers to file lawsuits so the risk of a lawsuit is pretty slim unless severe (permenant) injury or death occured.

I think what it goes back is tort liability, which requires a three prong test:

- Do I have a duty to care to design something properly?
- Did I break that duty?
- Did that duty cause injury to the other person?

Hmmm, I'll have to think things over.

By the way, for those of you who recommend insurance, please name an insurance carrier that you use and tell me how much your insurance costs.

 

[MintJulep]

It appears that Mr. Molin's relationship with MSU is not without controversy or legal action.

http://www.helenair.com/articles/2006/06/22/montana_top/000libel.txt

 

[sundale]

The OP should review the wisdom of taking this project on in terms of a "risk to reward" analysis. The fee one could expect to garner to design a wood bed is fairly minimal, I would expect. On the contrary, the liability risk is tremendous in terms of constructing one design many times. Is there enough fee to observe the construction to verify that the drunk and/or stoned freshmen actually build this bed according to the plans?

I personally would not take such a project unless I had "indemnity" and "waiver to sue" clauses in my contract with the university. They may or may not be willing to to this. Talking with the client "up front" about your liability concerns is always good. Some (potential) clients understand why you asking for such contractual protection and others view your engineering services as their insurance policy.

Unless the OP is desperate for engineering work, or this bed design project is a stepping stone to potentially getting more (real) engineering work from the university, I would respectfully suggest that politely declining the project is perhaps a valid answer to the question unless "indemnity" and "waiver to sue" contractual protection is obtained from the client.

 

[MintJulep]

A past employer was once involved in a lawsuit where an employee of a past customer lost a hand.

When I say past customer I mean that they bought a piece of equipment some 80 years before the accident.

The piece of equipment had long since been retired and dismantled.

However, various parts of the retired were used by the past customer to construct or maintain other equipment. One such part was used on a machine build "in house" by the past customer. This machine was grossly deficient in design - having no safety guards at all. This is why the poor guy lost his hand.

My employer got sucked into the lawsuit because the part that was used was a large cast gear - that just happened to have my employer's company name cast into it.

Ultimately my employer was absolved of any liability. However significant costs were incurred for legal counsel, the need to research the history of the part, having managers travel to testify, etc.

The point?

You can be sued for anything at any time by anybody.

I'll write that again. You can be sued for anything at any time by anybody.

You may be absolved of liability, or the suit may be thrown out, but you will incur costs and grief.

You can protect yourself with appropriate insurance, but you will need to do so forever.

It just doesn't seem worth it for the likely minimal fee for this job.

 

[xnuke]

IMO, these are questions best answered by a lawyer.

xnuke
"Live and act within the limit of your knowledge and keep expanding it to the limit of your life." Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged.
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[MechEng2005]

While I agree that it is somewhat pathetic that students need plans to build these beds, that is somewhat off topic (althougth, like IRStuff, I got some wood and just "had at it" and got it done. Luckily, I quickly made friends with some upper classmen and was able to get the wood from the dumpster diving they had done when previous students had been moving out 3 months earlier. )

I would disagree with cedarbluffranch's statement:

"Some universities actually require a PE stamp on the plans in order to show that it's not a homemade job."

Do you really think the university cares if it's a homemade job? I'm sure that in the history of the university they have seen more crazy and dangerous loft beds than I can imagine. And if a student is looking or uses plans to design the bed, do you think they are doing it because they want assurance of safety, or because it's easier? Maybe the university would like to supply a bed design to decrease the crazy and dangerous beds, but I think a design with some common sense would suffice. It wouldn't require a PE.

I think that the reason that some universities require a PE stamp is to limit the university's liability, by passing it on to the PE. That gives me some gut-feel for how much liability is involved (more than the university wants). Do you want that liability? And, if I am correct, and that is the university's motivation, then they will probably not be receptive to attempts to contractually limit your liability.

Whatever you decide to do, best of luck to you! I hope it works out for you. I didn't want this post to sound to much like "If you do this, you are wrong," though I suspect it might. I truly do wish you the best. I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in and give my gut feelings for consderation.

-- MechEng2005

 

[drawoh]

cedarbluffranch,

What about homebuilt aircraft? Somebody provides plans for an airplane. Some other guy buys the plans and the materials and puts the thing together, sort of following the plans. The builder's surviving relatives sue the designer.

This must have happened somewhere.

IKEA has elevated beds with desks underneath. These are well designed for people not yet of drinking size and age.

JHG

 

[IRstuff]

The cited loft bed designs are lame, in my opinion, since someone has to sleep on the bottom.

The A-frame approach is way better:

http://files.engineering.com/download.aspx?folder=37140276-3064-4995-90f6-174739d9c670&file=bed.gif

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[diarmud]

okay, I think you may be a troll but here goes:

go to:

http://overlawyered.com/2006/10/tis-better-to-have-loft-and-lost/

and:

http://overlawyered.com/2006/08/nj-court-no-warning-that-one-mioght-fall-out-of-loft-bed-required/

and:

http://overlawyered.com/2004/signed-a-waiver-doesnt-matter/

and:

http://www.stellaawards.com/caselog2.html

the point is not winning, my question, of all those college students, some or their parents will sue, do you have enough money for the lawyers YOU will need?

Just because you take diligent care and do it right, doesn't mean you won't be sued and they may win.

You have got to tell us which college so we can follow the lawsuits!

 

[casseopeia]

Ikea has loft beds as well. Why can’t the school do something like this? Here’s my example dorm room.

And here’s the Ikea bed frame. You have to have enough head space, though.

diarmud, I've got the same sneaking suspicion, but I'm not terribly busy. I've designed custom kitchens around a basic Ikea set up. Some people hate the place, but it serves a market sector, no doubt.






"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

 

[monkeydog]

A star for MechEng2005 for clearly smelling out the BS from the University.

 

[cedarbluffranch]

Uh, there's actually a number of universities that don't allow you to have homemade lofts. You can speculate as to why. Engineers might say liability. Others might say to help the local business. Others may try to say to hurt the local lumber industry. I suppose technically requiring a PE-approved design doesn't prevent someone from building their own loft, but I won't speculate further as to that universities motives.

Some schools that don't allow homemade lofts:

http://www.slu.edu/services/residence/housing/loftkit.html

http://www.wmich.edu/housing/info/loft.html

http://www.unbf.ca/housing/reslife/rmassign/bedapplication.htm

http://www4.uwm.edu/housing/facilities_services/housing_services.cfm

 

[drawoh]

casseopeia,

Up here in Toronto Ontario, the IKEA stores attache a piece of plexiglass blocking access to the steps of their various elevated beds. There is typically a notice on them stating that access is blocked for safety purposes.

If it is not safe to climb these things at the store, are you sure you want students climbing them at the dorm?

JHG

 

[casseopeia]

That's just some CYA crap to keep kids from playing on them and adult shoppers from, well, getting frisky in them. I'm certain the plexiglas is not included in the box when you buy it. I've actually been looking at these for my SO's daughter. Underneath she can have a toybox for now (she's 4) and then a desk later for when she's doing homework. Or, her step sister can sleep in her room on a roll-away when she visits.

For the dorm, you could even devise an attachment of the IKEA bed frame to the walls of the room for added stability and theft prevention. But I'm not about to provide full working drawings and specifications for that. I'm cheap, but not that cheap!




"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

 

[MechEng2005]

Thanks Monkeydog!

cedarbluffranch:
I wasn't aware of these restrictions, but I'm not surprised. Nor can I say I was surprised to find out that the universities listed are offering to sell or rent loft units. By selling/renting the units at the prices listed (minimum $100 year rental), there is certainly a motivation for forcing students to use the university's units. The free market (i.e. students can build their own) would never allow the university to charge this much. I bet if they offered the rental units AND allowed students to build their own loft, the demand for rentals would plummet. The fact that some of the universities won't even let students have store bought models (i.e. Ikea) strengthens my feeling that this is just another place that universities found to weasel money out of students.

However, maybe the cost of the rental is specifically for trying to cover costs incurred due to the liability and legal trouble if somebody does get hurt. In this case, I think you need to charge a pretty-penny for the design of the unit. I figure the university gets at least 5 years out of a rental unit, at $100 per year. That means they get $500 per unit. Subtract the cost of materials, maybe $50. You end up with $450 per unit profit. Besides being a motivator for the policy, it could also be to cover liability. Can you charge enough for your design (however much is actually incurred) to cover for $450 per unit built? Plus, you may be more at risk since you are providing only the design. Some of the universities are setting-up/installing the rentals, and can ensure that it is done properly (bolts all tight, ect). You don't have that option.

For the record, I am somewhat bitter at university dormatory policies since when I went to college and they had what I felt (and still do feel) were unfair policies, including that students were required to live in the dorms for the first 2 years (with exclusions for older, married, or students with parents living within a certain radius). However, the average student was basically forced to live in the dorms so that they did not have to compete with other housing options. I definately would have been happier and have smaller loans if not for these policies.

-- MechEng2005

 

[TDAA]

I think all of those plans take up too much room, and do not allow for maximum floor / vertical space usage. We had concrete floors / ceilings. We made ours from 4x4 lumber. Four Posts, two cross members. Some threaded rod, washers and nuts to pressure fit it in place, and some chain, hooks, bolts and lag bolts to attach the metal frame to the structure. We just had to be sure we increased the pressure as the wood initially dried.

This allowed a couch and big entertainment system, as well as the built in desks we had at one end of the room. Since my roommate and I were both tall, we had the beds about 18-24 inches from the ceiling to allow for max headroom. Just climb from the arm of the couch to the top of the dresser to the bed.

Just another post that doesnt touch on the question asked

 

[DonPhillips]

I think an engineer's liability on designing a bed is not nearly the same as a furniture company designing it, building it, and selling it. Part of the pricing of the bed is the cost of defending lawsuits, knowing there will be claims, settlements, and possibly a few large awards. You distribute that risk over the millions you will manufacture and hte cost is pretty small. These companies already industrial exemptions from licensing so the engineer in the dark corner designing it is shielded from the potential liability.

If I was asked to design it, my fee would be pretty high, would include a written contract that I work with both my attorney and my insurance company, and neither my name or company name would appear on the final design. The school would own the design. You may not be totally protected from all lawsuits but at least the kids would have to sue the school and the school in turn sue you.



Don Phillips

http://worthingtonengineering.com