Liability of Unsealed/Unstamped Design/Calculations 8

[Jerehmy]

Hello,

Here's my issue. I'm an EIT who thought about making some extra cash on freelance job sites. I've been offered a job to design a retaining wall, but I'm having second thoughts because I don't want to put myself at risk legally.

Am I liable for a design if it is unsealed? Am I allowed to accept payment for the design since I'm not professionally registered?

They're just calculations, what they do with them is their responsibility. Is this a valid argument?


Thanks.

 

[JStephen]

Yes, yes, no.

 

[nutte]

You'd probably be guilty of practicing engineering without a license. State registration boards frown upon this.

 

[OHIOMatt]

"Engaging in the practice or offer to practice of engineering or surveying in this jurisdiction without being licensed in accordance with the provisions of this Act" - Grounds for disciplinary action NCEES Model law.

Not only should you not do it, it is likely illegal.

If there is a failure, you will be sued. You have provided a service in which you received compensation, so you are liable.

 

[PicoStruc]

If I had to explain the sealing process simply :

Stamping and Sealing authenticate the document.

When you don't seal, your don't authenticate the document but you are still responsible for the design.

It don't go both ways...

 

[Jerehmy]

Why would I be liable as opposed to the PE who signs and seals the plans?

Let's say I was being paid by an undergraduate engineer who needed calculations for a retaining wall design homework. I'm able to accept payment for that, correct? What if he then took them and built that retaining wall and died. This is extreme, but what I'm wondering is where is the line drawn from when I'm liable to when I'm not.

What's the point of a stamp and seal if you're still liable?

Thanks for your replies.

 

[SlideRuleEra]

A lot depends on the height of the retaining wall. Many building codes require an Engineer's participation if the wall is 4 feet high, or higher.
Less than 4 feet... an Engineer's input is not need.

http://www.SlideRuleEra.net

http://www.VacuumTubeEra.net

 

[Jerehmy]

It's 20ft.

 

[JStephen]

If you're working under the supervision of a PE, that's a different matter, but that's not what you said.

Look up your state's engineering rules and laws and see what they say. Most states have them online. The rules vary some from state to state.
There may be exemptions that cover your case, look and see.
Generally, whether you get paid or not wouldn't be the issue, but whether you did the work or not. It's like driving without a license, it's not wrong because you get paid for it, but just because you're doing it.
A lot of state rules prohibit "offering to practice" engineering without a license, require licensing of firms (firm license) and sole proprietors (firm or individual license), which would prevent an unlicensed person from offering to do the work, even if it would be subcontracted or sealed by somebody else.

 

[OHIOMatt]

I guess I am confused. If you are working with a PE, under his/her supervision, he/she is the responsible party. I was under the impression you were providing calculations / design without a license and without the supervision of a PE.

The hypothetical undergraduate scenario is absurd.

On you final point / question, perhaps you should read up on the subject.

 

[Jerehmy]

For this to be built, I'm almost certain a PE will need to stamp the drawings. I myself would only be providing the design, and no I would not be working under a PE for this project.

The client has to get the plans sealed for it to be built. Would it not be that PE's responsibility then?

How is the hypothetical any more absurd than a contractor using unstamped calculations to build a structure? They're just numbers on paper. I feel as though without a stamp, there's no legitimacy to them so why is it my liability?

Anyways, I am not willing to risk any legal or ethical issues. Therefore I guess I am forced to decline the job.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[OHIOMatt]

"For this to be built, I'm almost certain a PE will need to stamp the drawings. I myself would only be providing the design, and no I would not be working under a PE for this project."

For the above to happen, the PE would be breaking the law by "plan stamping". While I would like to assume the owner would not find such an individual, they might. The PE would be responsible.

 

[ztengguy]

If you went to school to be an engineer, you should know better than to even ask.

Also, why would your client hire you to design it, only to have to hire an engineer to check your design?

But, on the flip side, if you design it, and its shown on some drawings, so engineer stamps it, he is responsible. But, if its built, and something happens, and it wansnt stamped, Im sure the owner will whip out your calcs to his lawyer quicker than you can shred your copy.

 

[TXStructural]

"Let's say I was being paid by an undergraduate engineer who needed calculations for a retaining wall design homework. I'm able to accept payment for that, correct? What if he then took them and built that retaining wall and died. This is extreme, but what I'm wondering is where is the line drawn from when I'm liable to when I'm not."

First, let's address the ethics of doing a student's homework, and getting paid to do it. If a professor, or a state engineering board, caught wind of this, the student would be disciplined or expelled, and the state board would likely refuse to allow you to license because of ethics concerns. Thinking like this will not serve you well as an engineer.

Second, doing any kind of engineering which normally requires a PE or SE, while not under direct, close, and continuing supervision of a licensed engineer, in prohibited in most states. There are exceptions for certain government agencies and within the confines of a company (such as designing fixtures in a manufacturing facility for use in the facility.)

As to liability, you are responsible for everything you do. That does not mean that people with less ethics than they should won't do something beyond your control, such as building a legitimate design in a different place, or otherwise not fulfilling all requirements of the design.
In many states, unfinished designs must have words to that effect, shown on each sheet, such as "This document is released for the purpose of (Examples: interim review, mark-up, drafting) under the authority of (Example: Leslie H. Doe, P.E. 0112) on (date). It is not to be used for (Examples: construction, bidding, permit) purposes."

Now, if someone wants a rough design so they can see whether they want to pursue a project, there is nothing wrong with you helping them get enough information to make that decision. But if you mess that up, just as if you were licensed, they can still come back to you for compensation because you did not do the job correctly. The only thing that limits an engineer's liability is his/her insurance and the contract under which they are performing work.

 

[Archie264]

Jerehmy,

A 20' tall retaining wall is nothing to be trifled with. It is a very substantial structure with many things that could go wrong and do so dramatically and even suddenly. This is best left up to very experienced engineers. Run, do not walk, away from it.

You'll have plenty of time over the course of your career to work up to stuff such as that so hang in there. But in the mean time, start small and more importantly, start under the tutelage of an experienced engineer...the grayer the hair the better. If you're simply looking for some side work for extra cash my suggestion is to limit it to drafting at this point.

 

[msquared48]

You can do the calculations under the direct supervision of a licensed Professional Engineer in the state of the project, and the PE would have to seal and sign the calcs. Hopefully the PE has experience in the design of 20' retaining walls, and you have a geotechnical report with all the appropriate values and do not choose to pull the design values out of you a##.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[JAE]

My understanding of your scenario:
1. You would be hired by an owner to provide a design (calcs and drawings) to them for a fee.
2. The owner would take your design effort and get a PE to review/etc. your design and stamp/sign the documents.
3. The wall would then be built by the owner via a contractor of some sort.

Item 1 -
You would be practicing engineering without a license and without direct supervision of a PE or SE.
You would be breaking the law and face possible fines.

Item 2 -
The PE could review the design completely and under the law sign/seal the design.
However, they would be required by most engineering acts to THOROUGHLY review the calculations pretty much as though they were designing the wall from scratch
as they would be fulfilling their engineering duty by watching out for the public safety and welfare.
If the PE just performs a cursory review and stamps/signs the plans they would be breaking the law.

Item 3 -
The wall would most likely have to be built with a PE stamp in most major cities, towns, etc. Some areas you could possibly get by without it but not many.

Finally - The issue of liability has some bearing - but not all - on who signs/seals the plans. Ultimately the PE would bear the brunt of scrutiny in a lawsuit if the wall fell/collapsed.
However, anyone can sue anyone. You would be at risk unless you have some sort of limitation of liability written into your agreement with the client... a hold harmless clause or some
agreement that states that the client would seek out a PE to take final responsibility.

 

[paddingtongreen]

If you are an EIT, you have the address of your state's Professional Affairs Bureau or equivalent. Look there for legality and penalties paid by non registered engineers working unsupervised.

Personal liability, do you have liability insurance? If there is a defect in the finished wall, everyone gets sued, can you afford your lawyer?

Michael.
"Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved." ~ Tim Minchin

 

[steellion]

It's amazing how many people are willing to put their career on the line to make a few thousand bucks. Every single person responded that this was a bad idea, but the OP seems to still be fighting it every step of the way.

 

[Ron]

JAE nailed it. Now go read your engineering law and don't think about doing this again.