liability

[wildehond]

At the start of a project we're involved in, we made up an estimate of the masses of reinforcing that were going to be required in the building. We never summed the total estimated mass, but rather gave the quantity survyeor masses of reinforcing per cubic meter of concrete for all the elements (bases, columns etc) At some stage during the project I started to realize that all the elements were requiring more reinforcing than I had intitially estimated. We got the QS involved and after investigation from our side, confirmed that the reinforcing requirement was going to overrun our initial estimate. We wrote to the client with a revised prediction and a new amount. This news went down like a lead balloon, but seemed to be swallowed and accepted.

We've now realised that the amount is going to be even more! Some errors from our side on bending schedules mean that the reinforcing quantity is going to go up by another 10%.

Question: Would our client have grounds for a claim against us? Could he argue that had he known about the actual reinforcing that he would not have proceeded with the building and that this has affected his profitability?

 

[dik]

It is likely that your client may have grounds for a claim. Errors have been made. If lawyers get involved almost anything can happen. Was the original estimate based on final drawings and was the client responsible for any changes? What was your reason that you presented your client for increasing the amount of reinforcing in the first place? How much was the original increase? and the final increase? Did the quantity surveyor question your original estimate? What is the value of the new increase? You may want to 'eat' this cost.

Just some ramblings

Dik

 

[wildehond]

Dik, Thanks for your "ramblings". The total costs are too big for us to "eat". But that's why we carry insurance. If I believe that a claim would be successful, then it could be a good idea for the client to claim. We would have to pay the excess on our Indemnity insurance, but this we could "eat"

 

[JedClampett]

I would present this as a positive. The good news is that we need less concrete!
Seriously, I hope you don't get hung out on this. Assuming your final design is based on sound engineering principals, you need what you need. You made an estimate. It's an approximation based on incomplete knowledge. I know in the client's mind it seems as if the numbers only go up, but that's the nature of the business.
Further, what's the comparison between the reinforcing cost and other costs, like HVAC, plumbing, electrical wiring, doors, etc. etc? It's probably small potatoes.

 

[dik]

Can you meet with the client and explain the reasons? The work was hasty due to his schedule? Also, it's not like it was an additional cost, but he would have had to pay for it anyway...

If the issue is litigated, then the costs could include the original amount also.

Dik

 

[dik]

Sorry I didn't include it in my earlier post... Can you post the extimated weight you had included for beams, columns, slabs, walls, etc. as a #/cu.yd. value? Curious to see how these compare...

Dik

 

[JedClampett]

I would expect columns to be about 200 lb/cu yd. Beams would be similar. I design a lot of water retaining walls with very heavy reinforcing which would be unusual in normal building designs.

 

[bridgebuster]

I work mainly on projects for one particular public agency. The unwritten policy is that they don't make a big deal over a bust in a quantity provided since they were going to pay for it anyway and if it's not too late to correct.

Of course it's a different story if the structure is completed when they learn of the error.

I remember some words of wisdom from an engineer/attorney at a different public agency I was employed. I asked him to review some notes I wrote, being young and inexperienced I thought the note would relieve us of any claim. He said,"...anybody can sue anybody for anything..."

 

[dik]

Jed... Columns could commonly be 300 to 400 pcy; I think 200 is light... beams 200 to 250 is not uncommon.

Dik

 

[SperlingPE]

If the actual amount of reinforcing is more than you estimated, the owner still pays for this.
It would have been required whether the estimate was correct or not.
You are not going to be seen in a good light and this may affect future work, but this is the owner's bill.

 

[dik]

Or maybe the reinforcing stayed pretty much the same and look at the benefit he is getting from reducing the size of the concrete <G>... We went from 36X36 columns to 18X18, but the reinforcing stayed/increased...

Dik

 

[Ron]

As others have noted, anyone can claim on anything...don't go offering up your insurance coverage as a sacrificial lamb though.

For the future, make your projections in language of an "engineering opinion of cost" or similar. You are engineers, not contractors. You are not bidding, they are. You should further qualify your quantity estimates....that they are based on preliminary engineering, subject to later revision based on review. No, this might not prevent a claim; however, it puts you in a better position to defend such a claim.

Check your general conditions of your contract. Make sure they include a limitation on liability. If they don't, they should.

Go to

http://www.pdhonline.org

and look up a course on contract review titled "Every Word Counts-Contracting Mechanisms and Their Review". You can download the document even if you don't want to take the course. It contains some info that might be helpful to you.

 

[bridgebuster]

"don't go offering up your insurance coverage as a sacrificial lamb though."

I wasn't being flippant, but as I learned, there was a lot of truth in that statement. In the early 90's a firm I worked for was sued for two construction related accidents. One involved two workers who fell; one was killed. The other involved an elderly motorist who was killed in a head-on collision because he was driving on the wrong side of the road.

We weren't involved in the construction inspection but were named as co-defendants in the suits. We were eventually released but it cost us. I seem to recall it was in the neighborhood of $100 K in legal fees alone. It was a big hit for a 75-person firm.

 

[wildehond]

Dik (and others)
Thanks for your input. All heartening.

The rates for reinf/conc that we've used run approx as follows:
Bases 105kg/m3 = 177 lb/cub yrd
columns 260kg/m3 = 437 lb/cub yrd
Beams 120kg/m3 = 202 lb/cub yrd
Shafts for seismic elements 260kg/m3=437 lb/cub yrd.

I've mostly made peace with the rates except for the shafts one. somehow feel that this should be less.

Have to present the "numbers" to the client today. My balls are a little shriveled right now.

 

[dik]

I'm not sure what you mean by Bases... machine bases? in which case I'd have likely used about 150 pcy... Columns look reasonable. Beams a little light, but reasonable... Shafts for seismic... if you're talking about walls, I haven't a clue... you must be in a very high seismic area... If shaft walls for lateral, I haven't used half this value... nothing that looks greater than 10% over... If this is a high seismic area as indicated by the shafts?, then the beam reinforcing might be a little light... I've often ended up with 250 pcy.

Are you sure the problem isn't with the amount of concrete?

What is the structure mostly composed of? If mostly beams and your estimate is light, then could rack up a substantial total. What portion have you included for laps? wasted material? Is the contractor including for this?

Good luck with your meeting... hope you don't end up squeaking <G>. I can see why your quantity surveyor did't run up a flag... With the exception of the terminology, your values don't seem to be off the mark.

I'd be interested if anyone else could post quantities they use for estimating rebar... JAE or Ron have any comments on the quantities without doing an actual takeoff.

Dik

 

[mitchelon]

Wildehond and others,

The key word is “rework.” If there is nothing to rework, than shouldn’t have to pay for additional work that has not been performed. I hope that made sense. If the client doesn’t have additional funds, then help him to find a way he can reduce costs (ie. deleting portions of the design). Like some have said, the client was going to have to pay for that additional steel anyway.

 

[CJJS]

I wouldn't even think of this being a big issue. A 10% underestimation for a small percentage of the overall project shouldn't be a problem. If the contractor doesn't make an issue of it, I wouldn't worry about it. As stated by others "anybody can sue anybody".
What is the estimated cost of the completed building? What percentage of the overall cost is the reinforcing steel? Take 10% of that and deduct it from the overall cost of the building.... I doubt that is a significant reduction.

 

[bkgd]

Couple of comments fairly late due to reading the post late.

One you can't get in trouble for added cost for the added rebar since it is required assuming the anlayis is correct. Value recieved by the owner, the owner cannot get something for free just because you under estimated it orginially. Different story if something is built and needs to change. So now it boils down to preserving the client relationship, regardless of above the owner now thinks he needs to pay for more because of the design that you did and they don't understand what we go thru.

What I typically try to do in a situation like this is as follows in the following order:

1. check the design, it always amazes me when I look at one of my engineers designs and find out they used #5 bars in the bottom mat just to match the top bars at the columns, #4 in the bottom mat would suffice just fine, that is 50% increase for this seamingly innocent design assumption, assuming the same spacing.
2. the second thing I do is recalculate the rebar quantities of our system to the nth degree and notify the client we are doing this. This includes everything slab bars, trim steel, dowels, column ties, cross ties, everything to the nth degree, make sure to break out the assumption on lap splices and a percentage for waste (ie buying a 30 foot bar for a 20' span, ect.... Keep the quantities in thier respecitve area, slabs, footings, columns.....
3. Then I ask the owner to get the contractors estimates/bids so that i can compare the numbers in item 2 above to verify that the bids are correct. You would be surprised how many times you find significant errors in these numbers, trust me the owner nevers sees the mistake come back in savings. You also can see how much they need to add for alignment bars, chair bars, and other "means and methods reinforcing" which we always exclude. You definetly need to exclude these bars since you will never be able to guess accurately what each different sub will use. My expeirnce is that for slabs this can add 10% or more to the slab steel weight. Also for a small slab (less than 100' wide) the extra PT reinforcement weigth can add 3 to 5%. This is due to them running the PT long so they can pull it. I always say we only give them numbers for "What is In the Building".
4. Depending on the outcome of item 2 and 3 you will know if the numbers are accurate or not as compared to contractors numbers. If you are still high at that point I try to discuss with the contracotor ways he might like to do things differently so as to save materials, time and/or money.

the bottom line is that the owner will see you trying to make a huge effort to save him the overuns and that is important to him. you need to remember for example in the NW US the cost for a Condo high rise project would be about $175/sf, of which the structural cost is about 32 to 37$/sf depending on the structure so as others have said the structural cost is a small percentage of most projects and the reinforcing is even a lesser percentage.

The thing you need to do is show a tremendous effort to show to your client you care about the problem that has been created and you are willing to go way out of your way to help him solve it. In this industry problems are always there it is how you react to them that sets you apart.

Good luck

Regards,

Blake

 

[dik]

wildehond:
How did your meeting go?

bkqd:
Depending on the circumstances, if you have caused the client costs, you can be sued in most jurisdictions. If the client's project was marginal and the added costs have put it over the edge, you can be held to consequential damages, too, in most jurisdictions. Whether he would have had to pay for the 'real' steel, depends on the agreement that the estimate was based on...

Unless your preliminary analysis is way out of wack, the cost difference in a preliminary design and final design is generally small... the real economy is generally in the framing system assumed. To redo the calcs to try to trim off a few pounds may be a consideration, but, it points out that you didn't do a 'good' job in the first place... in addition, it uses resources and adds further costs to the project.

Obtaining actual quantities is a great idea and these can be compared with the initial estimate and the quantity surveyor can also check these. It's also good information to carry on to the next project.

 

[csd72]

Were the reinforcement quantities not put in as an 'estimate' where I come from 10% variance from an estimate is acceptable.

It is important to point out to the client that if you could size everything accurate in the preliminaries, then you would not need to do detailed design!

As has been previously stated, the cost of the reinforcement change will be minor, probably only 1% of the project. If the project manager has not allowed for variances like this, then it is a PM issue not a design issue.