Locate Buried Cable 13

[rnd2]

On my rural property I am trying to map the underground location of an electric sub-main cable. This cable was laid before we purchased. There are no obvious obstructions and no other cables any where near but it apprently does not lie in a straight line between two outlets which I know come from it because I have dug two deep sighter holes to no avail.
I welcome suggestions.

 

[rmw]

Since we are having some fun with this, (vis-a-vis the skeptics vs the believers) I will paste a message here that I recieved this morning from a life long freind who is a Medical Doctor now, but who at the time was a Youth Minister, and the director of the youth camp mentioned above (and my boss) when all the aforementioned discovery happened. I had e mailed him a copy of this thread last night just for giggles. Here is his reply, proper names deleted, of course.

Begin pasted message:

That was a great recounting of a great experience. If you want to add my story, here it is. And remember, this is from an English major, so credence may be a REAL problem.

In 1978 we were visiting my mother and father, who lived in Tampa, Florida. Dad was the handyman for the apartment complex and had a young man, named XXXX, working with him. Sometime during our visit they had to find a buried line. I was inside visiting with Mom, but took a break to see what Dad was doing. They had dug up, by hand, an area approximately 20' by 20' without finding the line. When I got the details, I just walked back inside and reappeared in a few minutes with my apparatus, made from two coat hangers. (Personal note: I learned this procedure at the same place and time as rmw.) You should have seen the look on my Dad's face! Here's this 61-year-old WWII vet, experienced mechanic, and guy who had basically "seen it all," whose English-major, youth-minster son, was now standing before him with two coat hangers bent into L-shapes, prepared to find that line. I took about three steps, the wires crossed, and I said "Dig here." Three shovel strikes later and the line appeared. The old man talked about that for years. bb

I knew you'd want to hear this story.

End of pasted message.

This is rmw again, and that is straight from a true believer. But always remember that in the signature block of a prominent member of this forum appear the words "the plural of anecdote is not data".

rmw

 

[VEBill]

Once you get your dowsing rods working reliably, don't forget to claim your US$1,000,000 prize.

http://www.randi.org/library/dowsing/

The ball is firmly in the court of those who believe in such nonsense to step up and claim the prize. You'll not only be proven right, but you'll also be rich to boot.

 

[Barry1961]

Right after getting out of the USMC I had a couple months to kill and got a job as a helper running new phone service cables. Often this new service cable would have to run through areas that had drasticly changed since the original cable was laid. The locations of water, sewer and phone cables were often given from "edge of dirt road" or even "oak tree". Of course now there was a four lane and no trees.

The company had a guy who could not only find a buried pipe or cable but could tell one from the other. He would use the two bent wires and would twirl them before he started. He never failed to find a cable or pipe the first time in probably a dozen times while I was there over two months. Often the pipe or cable we were looking for would be 30' or more from where we thought it should be.

I can't say that dowsing works but I can say that guy saved a us bunch of hand digging. He was around 20 and said his dad was better at it than him.

Another thing I learned was that if you are running a Ditch Witch through a neighborhood at 9AM and get tangled up in the little drop cords the cable TV company uses you should run for your life. If you don't you will quickly be surrounded by mad women without makeup wearing house coats demanding that you hook it back up.

Barry1961

 

[rnd2]

I fall in the curious/interested/nothing to lose category. My handle is rnd2, meaning research and development as well. I try to keep an open mind until something is proved certain to me one way or the other.
Personally, this little execise is a pleasant and cheap diversion. I am very concious that the first time I crossed known buried cable the wires aligned with it without deliberate intervention. However, I am also very concious I was tired holding the rods out straight for 30 mins and it could well have been a sub-concious reaction to get it over with. To prove overall robustness of claims from either camp require repeatability and accuracy well beyond the scope of my insignificant project and require a scientific explanation because aside from repeatability there is need to know WHY as well as HOW and that would involve a considerable amount of R&D, I think well beyond the 1 million dollars JR offers. (see VE1BLL post dated 14 April 05 15:06)

rmw, any chance of finding that paper?

 

[ScottI2R]

rmw,
Are you a "well witch?" I actually watched this done in 1984 by a co-worker that had hired a "well witch" to find water at his newly purchased home in the country. At least it was "country " then... After unsuccessfully drilling two wells at something like 1500 USD ea. He hired this person that came out and found the water veins and proved to my fresh outta college butt that "this hokus pokus BS" really worked! I was HUMBLED and shut my cake hole after that.
Hmmm. maybe this explains why my leg with the metal plate in it always takes a turn while I am cutting the lawn...BTW, I understand that this technique does not work for the majority of the populace in Ireland. If only I were more Irish, my lawn would be the envy of the neighborhood!!!!!

All jokes aside, I watched it work (for water) and I even tried it myself and the rods crossed. And NO, as far as I know, nobody got "dowsed" when the well was dug! (Bedtime!)

Scott

In a hundred years, it isn't going to matter anyway.

 

[rmw]

rnd2,

I have already done a little looking for the paper, but so far without success. I have had a couple of employment changes and/or office moves since I would have gotten it, so it might be difficult. I can't picture having destroyed it based on the nature of the ribbing I have taken over time for putting any credence in it (all the while being a degreed licensed engineer). I'll keep looking.

As I remember it, once in the early '70's, when I was starting up a power plant shortly after I got out of the university, a start up engineer for Byron Jackson Pump Co there to fix a BFW pump problem and I were chatting and somehow the topic came up. He mentioned that some high level technical person for BJ, a chief engineer, or a chief research type person had done some work on it, and had some technical information on it. Nothing more came of that conversation other than the knowledge that there was at least one degreed technical person in the world besides myself that put some credence in it. He knew enough to know that the researchers work involved the interactions of magnetic fields, which I had long suspected was what was involved.

I seem to remember that when my former college professor sent the article, I think it was by the individual that the pump service person had mentioned to me. But it has been a long time ago. The paper was about the influence of the fields between the buried lines, and the rods.

The thing that has been enjoyable about it is that my supposed "education" and "training" would debunk such a thing, but in real life, it has worked for me repeatedly, and I would not hesitate to use it in a heartbeat if I neeeded to look for a buried line.

ScottI2R, I am not into finding water wells, water witching, dousing, etc. And, frankly, except for the fact that I hold a strong belief in something that others with my background are highly skeptical to downright incredulous about, and have been the recipient of some serious abuse over the topic, and don't want to treat folks that believe in their thing the same way, I am among the skeptics regarding "peach tree bifrucated branches."

So, if the rod method works for finding water wells, I will leave that for others to do. Buried lines is my thing. I guess I am not a candidate for the big bucks.

rnd2, I suggest trying the method on a variety of buried lines. Surely you have some other type lines, water, telephone, cable, gas, etc., that you know the general vicinity of to try it on. As you get the feel for it, you will know it is not your influence that is turning the rods.

If you need to, do what we did in the ME lab, and make a cart (we used a childs wagon) and attach a couple of vertical tubes (we used the type wooden handles like buckets used to have) to hold the rods, and then drag the wagon with the rods pointing rearward, so that the swing of the rods is counter to the direction of motion. Alternatively, walk backwards through the zone where you are testing. You really get a feel for it when the rods have to overcome inertia in order to turn.

I'll keep looking for the paper. I am getting more curious all the time.

rmw

 

[rnd2]

EUREKA!
Without a huge amount of fuss the cable is located, and I am truly thankful for that.
Walked over the area and first the left hand wire moved. Rotated direction as carefully as possible until both wires moved. Retraced twice both ways and the wires moved pretty much when crossing the same place. Each time the LH wire swung to the right and the RH wire swung to the left.
Dug a deep hole according to the best interpretation I could make and missed everything. Not quite ready to give up tried with bent wires again and got exactly the same response, but now with the hole as a sighter, it was clear the wires indicated about a half hole further South than where first dug. Dammit, why isn't there a digital read-out? So I dug again and approx 2 feet down, EUREKA!
Am I impressed? Certainly. Why would I not be, the cable is exposed. I now can confidently book the electrician and my original "engineering logic" estimates weren't even close compared to the wires. Am I convinced? No. Not on one success plus I have no idea why and I don't know how. Unfortunatley, I have seen promising concepts crash and burn under rigourous testing. Would I use it again not-for-profit? Absolutely.
One thing that occurs to me about JR's million dollar challenge is some smoke and mirrors may be in the yet-to-be-agreed terms of contract because, IF this thing is real, it is now cystal clear at least to me, that most anybody can do it.
Surely it would be a walk up start to win the mil for those truly skilled in the art but apparently no-one has.
Anyway, thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread and especially to rwm. May your wires always align accurately!

 

[rmw]

Glad you had good results. Not bad work for a novice. Sounds like you had some fun trying. At least you were game enough to try. I really have to wonder where I would be on this if I hadn't been at a youth camp when I was shown this. It caught on, and was the rage for several days. The kids were Middle School age, so they still had a little of their youthful enthusiasm and inquisitiveness in them (they weren't "cool" yet). Older staff and everybody got in on it. It became quite a phenominon seeing dozens of people repeating the same result in a lot of different areas of the camp. I was usually the one they came to to confirm their find, since I was very familiar with the layout of the utilities. It was interesting seeing the frustration of those who absolutely couldn't make it work all the while seeing their friends and associataes doing it all around them. I guess all this activity is what sealed it in my mind as something with some kind of worth.

This thread has been a trip back to the past. I haven't thought about some of those people, places or things in a long time.

rnd2, keep this phenominon in mind, and if you ever come across anything real concerning this, post back so we all can know why it works.

rmw

 

[ScottI2R]

Excellent!
I, for one, am glad it worked for ya. Does ANYONE know who started this concept or where or when it originated? Haven't had a chance to google it.....
Thanks,
Scott

In a hundred years, it isn't going to matter anyway.

 

[Warpspeed]

Excellent rmw, I too have seen this done successfully, but it does not work for me unfortunately. But it can and does work for others.

A star for having the guts to step forward on a Forum such as this and raise a fascinating topic.

 

[VEBill]

Let us celebrate the downfall of modern science with a line of dancing pink elephants:

 

[SolderingGunslinger]

As far as dousing goes, I too am a skeptic, however I have seen Dousers accurately find water sources, buried items, graves, etc, so Me thinks a quote from the Bard of Avon is in order.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Hamlet, Act One Scene Five

 

[rnd2]

Are the elephants doing the CAN-CAN?
Sorry, couldn't resist.