Looking for General "Rules to Remember" for Engineering Students 10

[Ron247]

I am putting together a 1 hour or less presentation intended for civil engineering students some of whom want to be structural engineers and some who may wind up becoming one but at this time are not sure. They would range from Freshman to Seniors. Although it is intended to be primarily focused on structural engineering, I decided to broaden it from just structural engineering to a combination of engineering, structural engineering and a little on investigations into problems. Seems like most of college is geared to new design and not much on looking into problems with existing structures. I would like for everyone gets something of value even if it is just one piece of information that helps them.

I decided to just present some very general "Rules-To-Remember" on the 3 topics. These are intended to be very broad rules that everyone could benefit from rather than rules related to some very isolated subject like "pressure vessels" or "investigating crane systems" etc.

Attached is a first draft. I would appreciate comments, additions and ideas on handing the students some sound general advice from experience engineers. Again, I am not looking for specific cases or instances. I have one hour and we all know it takes at least 5 hours to completely teach all you need to know about structural engineering.

I would rather they got one-hours worth of sound general advice rather than 1 hours worth of advice that will apply to less than 10% of what they might ever experience. I have never seen a set of advice like this presented to students but if anyone knows of an existing list, that would be even better.

[URL unfurl="true"]https://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/image/upload/v1558458215/tips/Rules_to_Remember_nvlnoe.pdf[/url]

 

[Agent666]

I think it's better to maybe focus on what they should be taking away from their experiences at college to put a more positive spin on it.

Things like ability to solve problems, focusing on the fact what they have learned is but a small window of what they might be exposed to in a long career and they need to be mindful that in many cases they don't know what they don't know. But they have all the tools to get there, but lack the real world experiences (but this will come), make the most out of those first years as a graduate, they will serve you well, etc.

 

[Guest090822]

The best advice to students is to not go into engineering LOL!

 

[Ron247]

I feel that who they go to work for right out of college is maybe the most important decision they will make upon graduation. Aside from obvious financial issues that may not allow them time to look for that perfect job, the fact is we don't all get the same opportunities. Getting a job at a firm that practices in the areas of expertise you are interested in, while having a really good mentor that is skilled to show you the ropes and just starting to get your life going is not that common. Some grads get "hooked up" pretty good but not all of them.

 

[Ron]

Ron247....I agree with your estimate of about 20% for the amount of credible knowledge gained in college for engineers. There is so much they are not exposed to. I'm a part-time faculty member in a college of construction and engineering in a regional university. I know first-hand what they are taught and what they are not taught. I am also a full time consulting engineer with a very diverse background of experience in structures, geotechnical, materials, civil and construction engineering. I can say without question that I could NEVER have learned in college what I've learned outside in practice. I didn't enjoy engineering school. I suffered through it to get my first job. Since then I have thoroughly enjoyed learning and continue to enjoy it, even after over 40 years of "practice".

It's important for young engineers to spend time with hands-on work in the field. If you want to be a structural engineer, get out on the jobsite and see how a structure is constructed, whether concrete, wood, steel or other. If you want to be a geotechnical engineer...get your hands dirty. Get down in those footing excavations (safely of course!) and see what bearing soils look like when they are prepared to receive the footing, or even better, see when there are problems with the soils that need to be corrected prior to concrete placement. If you want to be a civil engineer, see what grading, drainage and excavations look like "in the raw". Cross over and see how other disciplines affect your discipline. It's good for structural engineers to see geotechnical "stuff" and materials "stuff". Go to a steel fabrication facility and see what they do. Learn to weld. Learn what tensioning a bolt is like. Learn how clay feels. Learn what organic soils look like. Push a probe rod in the soil. Walk beside a vibratory compactor while it's compacting. This can't be taught in a classroom.

Finally, to learn "ya gotta want it"!

 

[271828]

...the 10% was my initial value and I wanted to see what others thought in general about the items, including the 10%. After reading your response, I am thinking more like 20% but that is really as high as I see it.

I agree that a large percentage of what it takes to be a PE or SE is learned after college. Why not communicate this point with a positive message like the following?

"Your college education is the foundation. You'll learn a tremendous amount more after that."

That way, you're not assigning percentages that appear to belittle their current work and expenditures.

 

[271828]

I feel that who they go to work for right out of college is maybe the most important decision they will make upon graduation. Aside from obvious financial issues that may not allow them time to look for that perfect job, the fact is we don't all get the same opportunities. Getting a job at a firm that practices in the areas of expertise you are interested in, while having a really good mentor that is skilled to show you the ropes and just starting to get your life going is not that common. Some grads get "hooked up" pretty good but not all of them.

That would be an awesome point to communicate. I find myself advising students along this line very often. They're focusing on a $5k starting salary difference when they should be looking at stuff like you typed in this paragraph. Good projects. Good mentors. Good culture of innovation and learning.

 

[Ron247]

I have a reason I think they need to have a rough idea of where they stand "structural knowledge" wise upon graduation as compared to a somewhat seasoned engineer with say 20 years as a PE comes from some sad cases I have witnessed over the years. First, I would prefer the university did this "tough love" their Senior year and opened their eyes some about the future. These sad cases are not typical of the larger percentage, but if you ever witness one, it stays with you. I know of at least 4.

Worst case I ever witnessed but fortunately is not common. (It has been over 25 years ago but as I remember it)

-Kid graduates Mechanical Engineering, marries his sweetheart (they both graduate) and takes a job with a company I did business with; he does not know it but his employer is not a registered engineer even though he refers to himself as "an engineer"

--I meet the kid while at their facility but do not know he is an ME; When he learns I am a structural engineer he asks me several simple PEMB questions and I answer them and tell him to call if he has other questions I can help with; I assume he is a CE.

--Over the next 2 months he calls a few times, I help him out with some fairly simple PEMB and fdtn questions. I know his boss is not an engineer but I assumed they have a registered engineer because they have an Engineering Department or at least his boss calls it one

--the kid calls one day to ask me something but requests I not ever let his boss know he called; seems the boss is unhappy with how long this project is taking and chewed him out for contacting me for help even though i never charged for it; The boss tells him he should be able to figure this out on his own. In the brief conversation, the kid feels like he did not learn ANYTHING in college. He tells me his engineer boss keeps telling him he should have learned all this in college. The kid is literally depressed. I tell him to come to my office Saturday because I will be there working and I will see what I can do to get him on track with this project I know nothing about. No charge again.

--He and his wife stop at my office Saturday; I find out the project is that the boss wants 1 or 2 PEMBs but thinks he can design and build them himself cheaper. He has this freshly graduated ME trying to design clearspan PEMBS and foundations completely on his own and this kid thinks he is supposed to already know how to do this. The boss is the only "engineer" at the company.

--I point out my background in relation to construction and structural engineering and that I would not have been able to do this project when I graduated without a Mentor. I also tell him he had ZERO chance to pull this off with a BSME. His only structures related classes were Statics and Strength of Materials. I show him the books we would have to have used to even get close and he has never seen any of these books (AISC , ACI etc) . The relief in his face was unbelievable, his wife looked like she was about cry and smile at the same time. She said that he has been up late hours every night, working at home on weekends since he took that job. They were somewhat newlyweds but constantly worried he would get fired and had done nothing enjoyable since he took that job. He was a good kid and a hard worker so he was going back through his ME courses at night trying to find what he thought he missed. This was "pre-Internet" to some degree.

--I told him the smartest thing he could do it start looking for another job, gave him some ideas of where to look and pointed out he was wasting his time working for a firm with no registered MEs. I told him to take a job with less pay if necessary and work a 7-11 job for the extra money if he had to. After all, with the extra hours at the first job, 7-11 pay is not that bad. I flat told him this guy was ruining his life. I never cared for the Owner, but did business with him. They left happy and somewhat more confident. Just knowing he had not failed in college as he thought he had was a blessing to them.

--He called me about 6 months later, had gotten a job with one of the companies we talked about and had been there about 4-5 months. They liked him a lot and he loved the job. He had good Mentors and was enjoying life. He thanked me several times. But I still remember the Before and After looks on their faces that Saturday. I think I pulled a muscle patting myself on my back later.

 

[MrHershey]

On the investigative side I'd add that concrete cracking or similar other signs of potential stress are much less likely to be something exotic, like an actual overload or structural failure, than due to something more mundane like corrosion, a construction defect, shrinkage, etc.

It's just a numbers thing. While the vast majority of concrete structures see damage due to the mundane items listed above at some point during their lifetime, most don't see full-blown structural failures. So even instances that look like an impending failure typically won't be, they'll be some combination of other more common problems, perhaps presenting in an unusual matter. Which is not to say you shouldn't treat those cases like they're impending failures, because the consequences can be catastrophic (see Miami bridge collapse). Also it's not to say you should ignore the mundane because they can certainly develop into real structural failures.

In medicine they call that a 'zebra'. As in, "when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras."

 

[ACtrafficengr]

I don't do much with structural design, but since I (among other things) look for patterns in motor vehicle crashes to find solutions, I've gotten interested in human factors in design. CANPRO's statement: "Your design has to eventually get built..." should be expanded to the following:

Keep all the users of your design in mind, including the builder, the maintainer and the end user. The most elegant design is no good if it can't be built, can't be maintained, or doesn't meet the end user's needs. Remember that user errors are often either caused by or aggravated by poor design.​

I'd like to add this: How do you know what you don't know, if you don't know you don't know it? Stay humble, especially when speaking outside your expertise, because you don't know what you don't know. Dunning-Kruger research indicates that most confident-sounding people often don't know what they don't know.


My glass has a v/c ratio of 0.5

Maybe the tyranny of Murphy is the penalty for hubris. -

http://xkcd.com/319/

 

[Eufalconimorph]

The computer is only as smart as its stupidest/laziest programmer. Blindly trusting software to be bug-free will get people killed, it has in the past.