M.Sc. vs Ph.D. -does it really matter? 6

[qwip]

hi. i am in the 5-th year of my ph.d. program. for the past couple of years the research group i`ve been working in was struggling both financially and, as a consequence, academically. As a result i am facing the fact that i have to graduate with may be one or no publications on my resume and patchy skills on a lot of subjects rather than a deep expertize in one field. All this makes me think that finding a job as a Ph.D. will be difficult for me and getting out of school with a Masters degree is a more reasonable option. How big is the difference between having a Ph.D. and having M.Sc. for finding a job? Is having a Ph.D. degree better in the long run for working in the industry or is it just a great thing to have in an academic career? What would you recomend in my situation?
Thanks,
Vincent

 

[GregLocock]

Why did you start a PhD? Have you achieved those aims?

So far as getting a job goes, in Australia a recent survey demonstrated that every year you spend in university after getting your engineering degree /reduces/ your starting salary, on average.

Assuming that the normal laws of supply and demand apply, that would appear to indicate that the MSc offers a better chance of getting a job, in Australia at least.





Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[corus]

It depends on the kind of job you're looking for. In industrial research a PhD will be worth more and will be looked on more favourably for promotion. If you want to go into academic work, ie lecturing, then it would also be an advantage. An MSc is looked on as just a better degree and has little advantage in the fields described. If you're 5 years through a PhD then you must be near the end of it surely? I'd finish it for the few years pain. Having Dr. on your door offers a lot more prestige and, sadly, image these days is everything.

corus

 

[JAE]

In the consulting engineering field, we actually avoid PhD's as they are not appropriate for the work we do. PhD's tend to be very very specialized and theoretical, more interested in theory and broadening knowledge in a tight area rather than the pure application of current knowledge to solve problems and make money.

 

[tngv752]

The higher degree the harder to get a job.
People'll scare when they employ you.

 

[corus]

tngv is correct. I had that problem once when applying for a job. When the manager said they were looking for someone less qualified I suggested that I could tipex out a few qualifications if it helped. It didn't :0(
If you are desperate for work then it's best to have a few variations of your CV (resume), removing qualifications as necessary, depending on who you are writing to. As far as I'm aware nobody has been sacked for not putting on their CV that they had a Nobel prize in Physics, or whatever.

corus

 

[JAE]

Just to augment my comment - I am in the structural field where MS degrees tend to be favored by a lot of firms (over BS or PhD) simply because the level of education seems to be about right at the MS level.

But in other fields the "optimum" degree levels are certainly different so you might do a little polling of various prospective clients to see what they tend to prefer.

 

[APH]

If you have the luxury, put your self in a town where you can finish your degree and get a possible job in the same time. I'm doing that right now, work full time and go back to school earning my master at night. It is very hard life, but I think it'll be worth it.

APH

 

[COKA]

I know quite a few PhD graduates who do not have a job, and all of my MS colleagues are employed. If you want to work in research, then a PhD is probably a must. However, if you want to work in industry, a BS is enough, but a MS is probably more then enough.

Coka

 

[qwip]

thanks everyone for the advices, it seems that the only place for a Ph.D. to be in industry is in research and developement where job openings are fewer and where a M.Sc. would not be as welcome ?

 

[HarrisDE]

I work for a German automotive supplier. Having a that DR. in front of your name here is akin to the star-of-greatness. We hire them all the time and they are quickly moved up the ladder to senior manager positions. I would guess that ~40% of our senior/executive managment has that doctorate of engineering or business. Perhaps its a German cultural quirk or maybe the slightly different German educational system...

Gruß Scott

 

[dporte17]

To echo what other people have said, it really depends on where you want to go. In forensic engineering a PhD is great. Courts just love having Drs on the stand, they tend to trust them more than the average engineer regardless of experience. I am hoping to take the time to complete a PhD some time just for that reason.

Again, the answer lies in what you want to do with it.

Dave

 

[APH]

at the end of the day, regardless whether you have Phd or not, you still have to bring the pay check home, consider that also.

APH

 

[plasgears]

At GE the unit mgrs were all MS eng, and the key resource men were PhD. The PhD engineers devised the major analysis programs and othr PhD gave direction to the future of product configuration. That's how it is in a major engineering company. The European model is not much different.

My recent experience in automotive is that QA types infest the engineering departments because it is cheaper that way. It shows in the quality of the product.

Wake up Detroit!

 

[Maui]

The PhD can prove useful in industrial research jobs and tenure-track academic positions. If your goal is to obtain an industrial engineering position, then the PhD will close more doors for you than it will open. You will hear the phrase, "You're overqualified" more often than not. The pay that you recieve will not be substantially greater than the pay earned by someone with an MS degree in the same discipline. And you may unknowingly inspire a sense of jealousy in your less secure co-workers who do not have an advanced degree. If your goal is simply to work in an industrial engineering position that does not involve research, then obtaining the PhD will serve no useful purpose, and will likely make your job search and work life much more difficult. The MS degree will benefit you much more.


Maui

 

[qwip]

maui, your post pretty much summarized opinions i got from a dozen of people working in the industry, things a clear for me now, thank you

vincent

 

[MadMango]

I don't see how it can hurt to have a PhD in your arsenal of skills. People should tailor their resumes to reflect the job they are applying for. There's nothing wrong with leaving items off a resume that are not applicable to the job to are seeking.

[green]"But what... is it good for?"[/green]
Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[Maui]

MadMango, how would you account for that 5+ year time gap in your resume if you left out the PhD? By the way, I do have one. And what I find that surprises many people about having that degree in your arsenal is that employers are reluctant to hire you unless they absolutely need someone with your particular skill set. There are several downsides that a potential employer sees in hiring a PhD when they could just as easily hire a BS or MS candidate. For example, they are afraid that you will become bored and seek employment elsewhere as soon as a better job comes along. Then they will have to go through the hiring process all over again. Why should they put themselves through that when they can simply pay someone who is not overqualified less money to do the same job? And the lesser qualified candidate will probably be less likely to jump ship as quickly. There is a general perception that PhDs are over-educated individuals who lack practical hands-on experience and common skill sets. This perception is, at least in my particular case and those of my fellow PhDs, untrue.

Other factors also come into play when they do in fact need to hire a PhD. Affirmative action criteria must be applied at all levels in a company, and that includes research positions that are usually filled by PhDs. I myself have been denied the opportunity to interview at more than one company/academic institution because I am not a minority. I know this is a fact because a friend of mine at one major production company told me precisely that when he explained to me why I would not be interviewed for the job that he originally encouraged me to apply for. The odd part is that many of the foreign-born students who win fellowships to come here to study for their PhD (which you and I pay for with our tax dollars) are typically hired much more quickly by US companies than US citizens provided they have the paperwork to remain here. It's a good deal for them, and can leave a bad taste in the mouth of Americans like myself. Most people who have not been through this may find it difficult to comprehend. Our own system discourages Americans from earning a PhD. If you look at any engineering PhD program in the US, the vast majority of the students in that program are probably not Americans. It should not be this way, but I see no motivation for this to change anytime in the near future.

 

[GregLocock]

I think the employer (rightly in my opinion) may well assume that the guy who is working in the particular industry is picking up many directly useful skills and knowledge that the PhD guy is not.

So, given the choice between a 30 year old with a BSc, and 7 years of industrial experience, against a 30 year old with a PhD, and 2 years of industrial experience, you'd definitely expect to be able to put the first guy into an independent designing position, and for him to pick it up and run with it. The second guy would not, necessarily.

Now, equally, if you needed a theoretical analysis understanding of something the second guy would be a better bet.

But, sheer weight of numbers says we need more of the designers than we do the theoreticians.

OTOH if you are 50 and have a PhD then I think that is a plus.



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[APH]

So to justify having Phd would follow this scenario.\

- Get Bsc degree.
- work for 7 years.
- Get a Msc degree.
- work for another 7 years.
- Get a Phd degree.

???

APH