Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time? 12

[shacked]

First, this is most likely going to relate to structural engineers since that is the field that I work.

As I am sure most of you know, when a project is completed and sent out to the city or client, there are always going to be mistakes, but the job is to minimize the amount and size of mistakes.

Last year I was the project engineer for a small 2 story wood framed residence. At the time I don't think that the PE who was stamping the plans thoroughly reviewed it but he did review it and stamp the plans.

Well, now they are building the house and the contractor called with a question and it turns out that I specified the wrong joist hangers on a detail.

So my boss tells me to fix the problem on my own time and not bill him, basically work for free. I realize that I made a mistake, but the contractor installed ALL the hangers and didn't even think about how he was going to secure them to the steel beam. The second that he installed the 1st hanger he should have called me and asked, but he didn't. I realize that I did make a mistake, but I also think that for me to spend my own time working on this for free is not right.

 

[KENAT]

"7) You are not obliged to repair in own time, however I would, depending on case probably do so. Not out of some kind of brown nosing or guilt towards the company, but because i take pride in what i do and will be annoyed with myself. "

That's me. I think Tick et al are correct that your boss can't reasonably demand it.

However if it really is a clanger, where I should have known better and it wasn't just because I was getting rushed etc then I have put myself out to fix mistakes. However, I wouldn't give them a full weekend or anything.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[MintJulep]

Flip the issue around.

If an employee does and exemplary job, is he deserving of raise or bonus at the end of the year? Should he expect one?

Clearly "fix it on your own time" is not a prime example of leadership, but the OP made a boo-boo that cost his employer money. The OP's employer is very likely being back-charged for the contractor's rework, and possibly for the delay as well.

It's not clear what the relationship between the OP, the responsible PE and OP's employer is. Ultimately, the PE that places the stamp on the drawing is responsible for the error and its resolution.

Someone's errors and omissions insurance premium is going up next year - if the policy isn't canceled.

Certainly no one would expect the OP to earn a bonus this year, and a zero raise wouldn't be out of the question, maybe even a demotion.

 

[monkeydog]

ewh,

The OP said
"At the time I don't think that the PE who was stamping the plans thoroughly reviewed it but he did review it and stamp the plans."

He knew the PE was not doing a thorough job. He accepted his shoddy review. Are you saying the OP has no resposibility to the job (and by the way the OP was the Project Engineer)?

Yes, people make mistakes, but you own up to your mistakes. Yes other people on the team made mistakes, but who was responsible for the job?

 

[shacked]

Thanks to all that replied.

Since I posted the issue has been resolved. Yes I did provide a solution to the contractor on my own time, which was a very small amount of time, but now the contractor wants our company to pay for the extra hangers that they need to buy.

So today I talked to the contractor and told him that I would like to wait until the project is complete before we pay anything. This is because there have been instances that his framers asked me if they could substitute a connector that they had a lot of instead of the ones that I called out on the detail, which I checked and told them ok.

Basically saving them money.
Actually tonight I thought that I might tell the contractor that I will do the work myself, so that he doesn't have to pay his framers, therefore minimizing our cost.

Now some comments as to others comments:

Monkeydog. I do not have an attitude. I do not see how you can determine that from the facts that I told. Yes, I made a mistake, my boss did not catch it, and the framer did not catch it until they were ALL installed. I actually asked the contractor about that today and he said, "Ya I know where you are going with this, and I already talked with my guys, and told them to think more about what and why they are doing something in future."

CSD72:
I do take pride in my work and try and not make any mistakes, but I can guarantee that even you make mistakes that are not caught. I talk to a lot of contractors and they are always caught off guard by my attitude. I am not the typical engineer. Many of them tell me stories about working with engineers and how most engineers thought that they knew everything and whatever they said was the law, and thats that. I say BS. There is more than one correct way to build something. Also many tell me that they have built all kinds of structures, from highrises to large 30,000 sf custom homes and that there are always details on the structural plans that do not correctly portray the detail or situation. So maybe you may be making a mistake and not even know it.

Whatever. Thanks to all that responded, it was enlightening.

 

[ewh]

I definitely agree that one should own up to his own mistakes. I would also go so far as to try to correct the problem on my own, provided it could be accomplished in short order, perhaps during breaks, lunch and a little time before/after hours. I draw the line at being REQD to correct it on my own time, especially if it would take longer than a few hours to accomplish.

Where do you draw the line at taking on personal responsibility for such mistakes? Financial repercussions can be very expensive, running more than some could hope to make in 10 years or more. Should they be required to work gratis until those mistakes are paid for?

Believe it if you need it or leave it if you dare. - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]

 

[csd72]

ewh,

This is part of the reason why I feel obliged to try and correct my mistakes in my own time (yes shacked I do do them and admit to them) the cost of redesign is only part of the potential cost of a situation like this so this is a way that you can do your share of the rectification at no monetary cost to you.

Offering to do the site work, or repay monetary damages is just crazy talk that is way way more than what is called for, we do not get paid enough to take that sort of responsibility.

 

[ewh]

I have worked at a couple of places where employees were directed to NEVER work "off the clock" on their own time.

Believe it if you need it or leave it if you dare. - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]

 

[rday]

This is the reason for E&O insureance.

An error crept onto the plan and was missed. It cost the contractor time and materials (actual costs) to correct the error.

The company should cover this, it happens.

shacked,

I would say DO NOT go do the work yourself.

"but I can guarantee that even you make mistakes that are not caught"

"I am not the typical engineer."

"Whatever. Thanks to all that responded, it was enlightening."

These comments make it sound like you have an attitude. You don't know anything about us, please don't presume we all fit into one mold. Maybe we are all atypical.

 

[GregLocock]

I am a little puzzled by the suggestions that these things should be fixed in your own time if it only takes a little effort.

Does this imply that you are only taking responsibility for small mistakes? How big a mistake would you have to make before you'd be prepared to let it slide?




Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[ivymike]

In previous jobs, I'd probably have been paid overtime to fix the mistake. I had a boss who grumbled terribly about that racket... but he still payed OT to get mistakes fixed fast. If you made a habit of making mistakes, you'd be replaced by someone who didn't.

In my current job, my time or their time is a hard distinction to make. We're an international operation, and people call me with questions at pretty much any hour that seems convenient to them. It makes it harder to distinguish between "my time" and "their time." Seems like it can all be "our time." I've told a couple of people that it was a bad time to talk and they could catch me in 6 hours after I'd had a chance to sleep (for calls at 2am). Other times, if the problem was big enough, my response would be along the lines of "give me about 10mins to shower and wake up, then call me back." Those calls are rare, thankfully. Anyway, my point is just that if you're working more than 40 and getting paid the same regardless, then maybe you can fix the mistakes in some of your shared time.

(ha- a great example of not sharing my time - I had a short-term supervisor who had me working over christmas break to help fix a problem. Meanwhile, he went on vacation somewhere west of me. He called one night at 3am my time to tell me nothing more than that our 9am teleconference was going to be delayed until noon. I barely choked back some choice profanities, then asked him if it was really necessary to call at this time of night for something so trivial... the idea hadn't occurred to him.)

 

[csd72]

ivymike,

I hope you get paid well. I know that no-one in my industry gets paid enough for that sort of nonsense.

My comments above are based on the fact that most structural engineers only work about 40 hours a week.

 

[BillBirch]

Shacked,
The most important point of this whole exercise is what you should have learnt about your contractor. He is clearly not your mate, but is sweet talking you. Apparently he detected the mistake at the start but carried on in accordance with the drawings - this is common because his paid rework then includes removing the mistaken details. Unfortunately, that is his right, as is to claim for the additional hangers.
Regards,
Bill

 

[csd72]

A star for you billbirch.

shacked, welcome to the construction industry where no-one lets morals get in the way of making money. Assume that all contractors are out to screw you and occasionally you will be pleasantly surprised.

 

[monkeydog]

csd72,

That is not limited to just the construction industry.

I have been in the aerospace industry for over 20 years, like you said there are some contractors that are true team members, and some out waiting for your every mistake.

There are even techs within the company that will build it to the drawing knowing it is in error. Just to say "I did exactly like the engineering tells me."

 

[ischgl99]

BillBirch is completely correct here, contractors bid projects knowing there will be rework from drawing errors or ommissions, that is where the lowest bidder makes his profit.

As for working on my own time to fix a mistake, I don't think so. Does your boss also expect you to work on your own time to fix a mistake YOU picked up before the PE reviewed it?

 

[TheTick]

Ask the company underwriting the "errors and omissions" insurance who is responsible and see what they say.

 

[apsix]

"the construction industry where no-one lets morals get in the way of making money"

I've also found that sort of attitude in the consulting industry, where a less than detailed brief is welcomed because of the opportunities it presents to maximise variations and, therefore, profit.

 

[BJC]

"the construction industry where no-one lets morals get in the way of making money"
And consultants don't let morals get in their way either. I have seen drawings so bad that the contractor had to hire an engineer to intreprite them.
Construtability to some consultants means getting the address of the project correct on the cover sheet.

 

[itdepends]

The way I look at this (and it has been mentioned above) is-

There is a risk-reward scenario here.

The business takes on the risk of mistakes/quoting to low for the reward of the profit if they get it right. If your being asked to pick up the risk (of a mistake) then when it goes right- you should be sharing in the reward (profit).

Cheers,

Daniel

 

[KENAT]

"I am a little puzzled by the suggestions that these things should be fixed in your own time if it only takes a little effort.

Does this imply that you are only taking responsibility for small mistakes? How big a mistake would you have to make before you'd be prepared to let it slide?"

If it takes a long time to fix it was probably a big mistake. If so the checks and balances should probably have caught it so the system isn't working and/or they share some of the responsibility. Or maybe I was being asked to do something I wasn't qualified/trained for etc. Also if it is that big a mistake then I clearly need to be demoted/fired or something, working a bunch of extra hours wouldn't change that.

Honestly it doesn't make a whole lot of sense Greg. Basically I take pride in my work but I'm not going to let my employer use that as an excuse to get a bunch of free work etc.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...