Manufactured Home Foundation 3

[SperlingPE]

I want to see how others have certified a foundation for a manufactured home with a full basement.
I have done manufactured homes without basement, but not one with a full basement. What is needed? Do the footings need to be uncovered?

 

[msquared48]

Presence of tiedown mechanisms per manufacturer's specs, or something adapted to the foundation, plus adequate support of the home at the proper bearing locations. Usually, the exterior walls should not bear directly on the exterior foundation wall - depends on the frame layout.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[Ron]

Why would you consider "certifying" something that you did not see constructed? You will need to do both nondestructive and destructive testing to verify the location, size, and quantity of reinforcing. You will need to verify the concrete strength.

 

[SperlingPE]

This is a home load situation. HUD required that the foundation be certified to meet the construction requirements for a manufactured home.
footing area, anchors for uplift, and sliding in both directions.
HUD publishes the requirements. They ask that an engineer cerify that the requirements have been followed.
I hav edone this for manufactured homes without full basements. I have to crawl under the home and verify that the home is anchored to a foundation system to prevent sliding and uplift. I have to verify that the footing is the correct size and is to frost depth. This is pretty straight forward for a home without a basement. Get under the home and do some hand digging at the footings.

I have not certified a home with a full basement. You can probably get to the anchors to verify them. You can probably verify the wall thickness. What about the footings? No hand digging possible.

I would like to hear from engineers that have done this certification for manufactured homes with full basements. I would liek to know if there are alternatives to machine digging around the house to uncover the footings.

 

[SkiisAndBikes]

In our jurisdiction, the construction of a full basement for a manufactured home requires a building permit and typically is inspected by the local building official as it is constructed. The timing and type of those inspections are identical to those of a stick framed house being constructed with a full basement. Engineers typically only get involved when there is something unusual, i.e. beyond the perscriptive sections of the residential code or when the contractor has proceeded without a permit.

After the fact, inspections become more difficult and expensive. Depending on building size, removing the interior basement slab-on-grade (3'x3') in two to four locations should give one enough information to confirm the footing size and soil conditions. An excavation on the exterior can also confirm the footing size and drainage layer conditions. Sill plates, tie downs, etc... should all be visible from the interior before the basement is drywalled. Foundation wall thickness are usually easily measured in a variety of ways. Concrete delivery tickets or testing can confirm the concrete design strength.

In summary, inspection of the basement is much easier if the inspections are conducted as the construction progresses.

A small word of caution, typically basement walls for manufactured houses are often backfilled before the unit is installed. The contractor should be bracing the interior of the foundation walls to prevent them from moving/collapsing before backfilling as they would otherwise have no lateral support at the top of the walls until the building is installed and attached to the sill plate anchors.

 

[bridgebuster]

For information only. the link is for a HUD publication "Permanent Foundations Guide for Manufactured Housing".

http://www.huduser.org/portal/publications/destech/permfound.html

 

[SperlingPE]

Thank you for the information. I have been to the HUD web site and have the manuals. I can usually figure out a way to determine the foundation wall thickness. The anchors may or may not be visible depending on the level of finish in the basement. This house is an existing home that is being sold and the lender (FHA/HUD) is requiring the certification.

There are no building records available. This house was built outside of any jurisdictions (rural location). There are no concrete tickets or any of that type of record.

It sounds like there is no other option except to expose the footings to satisfy the lender's requirements.

 

[BAretired]

You cannot certify a basement after it has been constructed and backfilled. How would you determine what reinforcement was in the walls, where it is positioned or what dowels exist between footing and wall?

If you certify the work, you become responsible for the contractor's errors. You would need to charge very high fees to take on that responsibility.

BA

 

[rowingengineer]

SperlingPE,
"I have to crawl under the home and verify that the home is anchored to a foundation system to prevent sliding and uplift. I have to verify that the footing is the correct size and is to frost depth. This is pretty straight forward for a home without a basement. Get under the home and do some hand digging at the footings."

How do you know what is in the footings? or the tie down is embedded enough?

I think the post inspection of the construction is a quick way for you to get a whole heap of responsibility without any recourse. I hope you limit your inspection report to what you can see and limit you certification as well.

As for the basement, I say Run, Run away.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that they like it

 

[BAretired]

If someone is going to certify that the construction conforms to engineering drawings, let it be the contractor's superintendent who was present during the entire construction process.

To saddle an engineer with the task of certifying the work of a contractor is ludicrous. Engineers should stand up to these bureaucratic idiots and simply refuse to comply. An engineer should NEVER certify the work of a contractor.

BA

 

[SperlingPE]

I have resolved what will be required with the lender.
Certification is probably the wrong word to use amongst engineers. However this is the word that was used in the HUD documents. I do not have to certify construction.
I do not have to certify reinforcing, concrete strength, etc.

This house was completed in the early 1990's and is now being sold. There are no contractors involved. I am not certifying the work of contractors. This house is built and has been occupied for several years.

HUD is asking that the house is attached adequately to the foundation for uplift & sliding and that the footings are of adequate size. Maybe inspection would be a better word to use.

Anyway the above is moot as the lender is only asking to get an assessment of the overall condition of the foundation and basement walls. I will be reporting only what can be seen. Anything else will have a qualifying statement.

 

[vandede427]

the word "certify" may void your liability insurance

 

[msquared48]

There has to be a jurisdiction involved here - county most likely.

Look to the exception clause in section 101.2 for existing foundations. You can list the deficienies you find and defer any approval /disapproval/ modifications to the local juristiction. The monkey will be off your back.

I just did it in a similar situation here.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[smb4050]

I did 3 manufactured housing inspections for HUD loans, and one had a basement. Didn't do anymore because of all the very wise reasons listed above plus HUD isn't specific on what is required to be VERIFIED. I had an engineer for a tie-down manufacturer flatout tell me "contractors never install the tie-downs correctly". Similar situation in that it was a rural setting, with local Government's oversight limited to getting the property on the tax rolls and not ensuring a safe home. The lender gave me the following wording that would satisfiy HUD's requirements:

this foundation is in general compliance with “Permanent Foundation Guidelines for Manufactured Housing” (HUD-7584).

My advice is to stay as far away from these inspections as possible. Also, my Professional Liability carrier has rider that states they don't cover residential inspections. Does yours? Don't do it.

 

[dhengr]

SperlingPE:

That’s really scary business, I’ve never found a bank or mortgage broker will to pay enough so you could possible do the inspection properly and correctly. You better limit your report only to what you can see and add plenty of qualifiers, disclaimers and limitations of further liability. In essence they are looking for an insurer of last resort and we aren’t generally in the insurance business, although they would like us to be. I don’t like the word ‘certified’ either, for all the reasons mentioned above. And then, with many of those operators, it’s wise to get your money before you turn over the report.

As an aside, re: your 8FEB 8:53 post, first sentence, I’ve heard it was tough to get a home loan these days, but what is the going rate for a “home load” these days?

 

[msquared48]

Guys... I'm sorry, but I cannot agree here.

To you, it matters NOT to what the lender says he needs here. What does matter is what you can say or not say, and the section I mentioned provides the out to do just that.

Subject to my final paragraph here, the lender will have to live with the fact that "approval" or "certification" if you will, will have to come from the local jurisdiction and not you if you find any deficiencies or items you cannot verify, and there are usually many.

As long as you list the deficiencies you observed, deficiencies and unverifiable items based on as if it were new construction, and cite section 101-2, you have complied with the HUD manual requirement. You have done your job.

In light of any specific language the lender would "require" though, if they provide that language to you in advance of signing any contract for services with you, I would inform them that that most probably the statement will not be able to be made in those exact words, based on experience, and tell them why, mentioning the usual outcome of having to go ewlsewhere for "certification". If they go elsewhere, so be it. If they don't provide the language, then you have free reign to follow the HUD guidelines to the letter.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[BAretired]

The whole idea of engineers certifying the work of contractors is wrong! It is blatantly wrong! Certification is the same as giving a guarantee. Why should an engineer guarantee the contractor's work? It is unthinkable.

Any engineer who certifies the work of a contractor is setting himself up for litigation...long term litigation. My advice to young engineers is...don't do it. Don't ever do it. Bankers, money lenders and bureaucrats do not have the right to demand engineering certification, so tell them to shove it...where the sun don't shine.

If your competitor agrees to provide engineering certification of as-built construction, that is his business...but he will not be in business for very long.

BA

 

[BAretired]

And, by the way, if you are writing a report on a foundation which you have not inspected, make sure to head your report with the words..."THIS REPORT SHALL NOT BE CONSTRUED AS ENGINEERING CERTIFICATION OF THE PHYSICAL WORK ON SITE. SUCH CERTIFICATION MUST COME FROM THE CONTRACTOR."

BA

 

[CTW]

How do people make money on these inspections? I was approached recently about doing these inspections for a lender, but the lender's current engineering inspector charges $450. There's no way I can do a thorough inspection and report and be competitive with that. Just curious if anyone else would share how they make money on these inspections. I agree with the posts that recommend avoiding this work.

 

[msquared48]

When there is no work, $450.00 is a job not to be refused, particularly when there are others out there that would do it for less if the client found them.

I restrict these to 4 hours and can do a valid inspection and two page report in that time. No destructive or non-destructive testing used or needed. Just your eyes, a camera, a flashlight, a knife, a screwdriver, a pen and notebook, and the HUD guidelines. Oh... and a car.

Cheers.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask