Masonry Horse Stable Design Loads 2

[XR250]

I am designing a large masonry horse stable. Each stall will be masonry with some openings for doors and etc. Does anyone know what kind of loads a horse can apply to these walls so i can reinforce them adequately? I am already specifying the lower 5 ft. of each wall to be grouted to prevent the horse from kicking the face of the CMU out. I assume if a crazy big horse wanted to knock some of these walls down, he/she could. But do I design for the worst case or assume some amount of damage could potentially happen and repair it as needed?

Thanks

 

[BSVBD]

I am involved in the coordinating of the drafting of construction documents for many dairy / milking mega-farms for cows and goats and last year we did horse riding-arena with housing areas.

For the horse facility, we had 12" concrete frost walls that cantilevered to 4' above grade. I suppose 8" would have sufficed, but, we were also accommodating the exterior aesthetics.

Does anyone know what kind of loads a horse can apply

I don't have an answer for this other than this google:

http://www.lemen.com/qa221.html

In Wisconsin, there is no code enforcement for "AG" (Agricultural) structures. We design these structures with a minor basis of commercial code, a major on experience and "some" degree of what we perceive to be common sense and, of course, a regard for budget.

I am already specifying the lower 4 ft. of each wall to be grouted to prevent the horse from kicking the face of the CMU out.

I would also include vertical rebar at a reasonable spacing and then a CMU bond beam with horizontal bar, with top of bond beam at 4' above grade to tie the solid portion of the wall together. Above that, I'm sure a horse "could" do damage. If the client is willing to pay more, bring the grout and bond beam to the top of (or over) doors.

Have some waiver in your general notes waving your liability from the actions of the horse(s).

 

[XR250]

All the walls do run all the way up and I was going to put a bond beam around the top.
Thanks for the advice.

 

[mike20793]

8" CMU grouted solid can easily resist a 15 lb 2x4 shot at 100 mph, so I think you are good as far as a horse kicking the wall goes. What you described is also the exact hardening that we do at some police stations I have designed. As for any other loads from a horse, would/could they be any larger than those caused by wind? I'm sure your reinforcement for wind loads would suffice for any accidental horse loads, especially with the fully grouted portion. How big is the stable? Are you adding a lot of extra reinforcement by using the same reinforcement on the exterior walls as the interior?

 

[XR250]

It is a big stable - 40 x 168' Both interior and exterior walls will be reinforced. I imagine the force of a large horse kicking could exceed the design wind pressure the same way a human can kick in a door that can survive wind loads. Hopefully there won't be any Clydesdales there :>

 

[wannabeSE]

With Google, I found an article titled "Measurement of kick loads from horses on stable fittings and building elements" at

https://www.researchgate.net/public...rses_on_stable_fittings_and_building_elements

 

[XR250]

Thanks Wannabe.
Looks like I am supposed to design for 150Ns impact momentum or 8722N (1950 lbs)
I guess masonry will be good at absorbing the impact energy due to its mass.
Don't know yet how to deal with impulse-momentum on the masonry wall. I'll have to put on my thinking cap.

 

[KootK]

I can knock a face shell off of a block wall with a hammer and my spindly cubical arms. I'd be inclined to think that a motivated horse could get the job done with a hindquarter and horseshoe. I think that I'd accept some potential for local damage and focus my efforts on any overturning problems that might arise where your wall may lack returns. No horse line dancing allowed.

Star for WSE for competent Googling. It's becoming a valuable skill unto itself. I can't wait to see it show up on a resume.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[XR250]

Thanks Kootk. We are grouting the wall to prevent localized damage. There will be a bond beam around the top. The stalls are only 12'x12' so I am hoping I can get enough horizontal spanning at the top to react my vertical rebar.

 

[mike20793]

I wonder how that impulse-momentum compares to the impulse-momentum from the 2x4 missile I mentioned above. That is the requirement for debris impact in FEMA Shelters and Texas Tech has quite a report stating the different systems that have been tested and whether they pass/fail. I think they have one that derives the impulse-momentum as well. For CMU I believe it was actually tested at 167 mph and the 2x4 was "reduced to splinters". I'm sure a horse could damage hollow block, but I don't think it would be able to in the grouted portion.

 

[KootK]

I'm sure a horse could damage hollow block, but I don't think it would be able to in the grouted portion.

I guess it depends what we mean by "damage". Is a horse going to kick through a full grouted masonry wall? I doubt it. Might a horse knock the face shell off of a solidly grouted masonry wall with the grout and surrounding block remaining in place? I think that it might. As I mentioned above, my only anecdotal experience comes from hammer blows. In the course of sounding an existing wall a little to aggressively, I've knocked the face shells off of a couple of grouted courses. Perhaps those were isolated QC issues? Or perhaps I'm a latent super hero...

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[mike20793]

You're probably just a superhero. StructuresMan? Can design buildings and knock them down with the flick or the wrist??

Link

 

[BUGGAR]

From a horse's point of view, how 'bout some "kick wall" liners of heavy plywood over wood sleepers placed on your solid masonry wall. Saves my hooves and absorbs considerable energy before said hooves actually hit and hurt your old wall. Replaceable too and keeps my stall looking classy. Rich people use plastic liners.

 

[Ingenuity]

If you place "stirrups" in the CMU wall that will restrain the horses. Boom, tish...

 

[KootK]

Can design buildings and knock them down with the flick or the wrist??

Ha! I wish that I could design buildings with the flick of a wrist. More like the slow birthing of a watermelon.

The video is pretty convincing. I wonder about the potential difference, from a fracture mechanics perspective, of being whacked with a steel hammer/horseshoe and being whacked with a chunk of wood that practically disintegrates upon impact. Perhaps that's already accounted for in the impulse numbers, I'm not sure.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.