Material Certifications

[pdybeck]

I posted this to another forum, but wanted to post it here to get the maximum number of people looking at it. (Sorry Tecumseh Group).

We have been hearing from our purchasing department that our material suppliers are either refusing to give certs for cold worked material, or they are quoting price adders for certs. The price adders can be pretty expensive. Are we being duped, or from your perspective is there a more general trend in the market to either charge (almost exorbitant prices) for certs on cold worked material or not offer them at all? Our people tell us the material vendors tell them they can supply certs for hot rolled/formed material but not for cold worked material. Has anyone else been running into this? What are the general practices of materials being supplied with certs - is it common for the purchaser to pay a much higer price due to certification, are material suppliers not doing this as much anymore, etc...? Recently we have received some material without a cert, and had it tested and found it to be roughly half the yield strength that it should have been. We have also seen an increase in material received with a cert that is basically fraudulent. Can anyone comment on your experiences? Have you seen a general trend in this regard?

 

[metengr]

pdybeck;
As part of my job responsibilities, I perform vendor audits to avoid just what you are referring to in your post. You or your organization needs to audit your vendors, it is buyer beware. Yes, there what I call "A" class material vendors, "B" Class material vendors and others. I would bet that like most organizations, your Purchasing folks go with low bid.

 

[pdybeck]

Could you provide some names of "A" class vendors that pass your test?

Pete

 

[metengr]

What is the material you're purchasing and for what specific application?

 

[EdStainless]

CMTRs are part of our purchase requirements. You can't quote a job without them.
As far as I am concerned without documentation you have shipped nothing.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Still trying to help you stop corrosion.
formerly Trent Tube, now Plymouth Tube
eblessman@plymouth.com
or edstainless@earthlink.net

 

[pdybeck]

metengr,

We purchase mostly round bar for shaft designs used on our products (OEM). Materials include 303 stainless, 1117, 1144 per ASTM A 311, 4140, 4340, 17-4 PH, 416 Heat Treat Condition T. We also purchase Hot Finished Steel plates and used to purchase cold rolled steel plates. The primary culprit right now seems to be the 1144 per ASTM A 311. Vendors are either saying that they can't get certs for that, or it will cause quite abit of extra $$$$.

Pete

 

[CoryPad]

ASTM A 311 has the following standard requirements to be documented:

Chemical composition
Mechanical properties

It has the following supplemental requirements to be documented if required by the purchaser:

Surface finish
Decarburization
Nonmetallic inclusions
Grain size

If you don't ask for any supplemental requirements, then you require two tests. The chemical composition can be determined by a third-party testing lab for less than USD100, and the mechanical properties also would cost less than USD100 for a third-party lab. If the steel supplier does it themselves, then the costs are even less.

The tests don't have to be done for each order (small coil of sheet or bundle of bars), just for the heat/lot. A 30-ton heat can be sold for at least USD500 per ton (basic cost for hot rolled steel), so the testing costs are less than USD200 for material worth USD15,000. This isn't a huge problem.

Regards,

Cory

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[pdybeck]

Cory,

I understand relative costs of material testing and agree that 3rd party is an option. I am trying to get a feel for what may be a trend in the material supply market - suppliers not wanting to ship material with certs, or at least quoting high prices for it.

 

[EdStainless]

If the material says A311 on it then the results of the chemistry and tension test are a required part of the purchase. You could say that the supplier has shipped material that he knows does not meet the spec.
Either they meet the listed requirements or not, there is no middle ground. If the ASTM says that an MTR listing chemistry and tensile are required then shipping that material without documentation does not meet the spec and it cannot be called by the spec.


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Still trying to help you stop corrosion.
formerly Trent Tube, now Plymouth Tube
eblessman@plymouth.com
or edstainless@earthlink.net

 

[CoryPad]

pdybeck,

I think you misunderstood me - I can't imagine how suppliers are quoting high prices for testing results that are inexpensive to obtain (even if THEY used the third party, not you). It is shoddy treatment of their customers, and I agree with Ed, they don't meet standards if they don't show results that comply with those standards.

Regards,

Cory

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[pdybeck]

Part of this may be mistranslation coming from others here in my company. We may have a fundamental communication/lack of knowledge issue on what a spec is and why it is important that we know what we just purchased. It may not be an issue, I don't know yet. All I know is that I am being told that material suppliers are not giving certs for cold worked material unless we pay a high price for them, but they are suppliying certs for hot rolled material. Doesn't seem right to me, so I tought I would see if others are hearing the same. I am also contacting the material suppliers to get their policy/statement on supplying certs with materials they ship. I am trying to locate the source of the problem.

Pete

 

[stanweld]

CMTR's are provided and available from materials manufacturers but may not be as readily available from Warehouse Suppliers. If the Warehouser must additionally test the material that is shipped to you, it will cost more money.

 

[pdybeck]

stanweld,

You may have hit on our problem. We like to purchase material here, purchase material there, not have to stock too much, purchase only enough for the next set of work orders - lean stuff. Are CMTR's always supplied by the material manufacturer? Potentially wharehouse suppliers don't keep CMTR's, don't get CMTR's, or don't track CMTR's. Could this be the case? How many reading this thread purchase materials from wharehouse suppliers as stanweld referred to them? Do many of you purchase materials direct from the material manufacturers (mill)?

Pete

 

[EdStainless]

Pete, even if using distributors is the problem there is a point missing.
If the material is being sold to an ASTM spec that requires testing, then it cannot be properly sold to that spec without the test report.
I have seen MTRs passed through five different people in the supply chain. They just keep making copies and passing them on. It is not difficult.
You need to explain to your boss why you must own current copies of all ASTM specs that you buy to. These are the legal basis of your contract and they detail the obligations of both parties. As the buyer there are certain things that you are supposed to call out.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Still trying to help you stop corrosion.
formerly Trent Tube, now Plymouth Tube
eblessman@plymouth.com
or edstainless@earthlink.net

 

[stanweld]

Pete,
You can always get CMTR's from distributers if you ask for them in your purchase order. Asking for them after purchase and delivery may prove another matter. You may also find that the CMTR provided does not truly support the material purchased. With the high mix of materials that your company purchases, PMI is also recommended as a receiving inspection tool.

 

[pdybeck]

Let me re-phrase...

We do own a volume of ASTM specs and I am familiar with them. We are an OEM. We need to have at least a certain level of strenght expected in our material in order to base designs from. Material coming from suppliers doesn't have to be tested per ASTM A 311, it is not a test specification. ASTM A 311 is requirements for Cold Drawn, Stress-Relieved Carbon Steel Bar. It defines information that must be at least met at a minimum. For example ASTM A 311 calls out Chemistry and Mechanical Strengths. If we would like material per ASTM A 311, then the chemistry and mechanical requirements of the material being purchased must at least meet what ASTM A 311 says. We look at the material certs from the material being supplied and see if it meets what ASTM A 311 lists for the material and size. If it does, then we buy - if not then we don't. We are being told we can't get that information from some suppliers - the chemistry and mechanical certs for cold worked - cold drawn bar. They can get us mechanical and chemistry information for hot worked, but claim it will cost extra for cold worked. I am trying to find out if this is indeed the case and if it is, then why.

 

[pwtomlin]

I think what most people are trying to say is there isn't any reason asking for certs should cost you significantly more. I think there are two possibilities here.

1. There is some reason particular to your industry/suppliers/situation as to why they cannot easily supply certs for cold-worked material, and others on this forum simply are unaware of these conditions.

2. Your supplier is trying to pass off substandard material on you, hence the lower price. But there really isn't any cost savings if the material doesn't stand up to the conditions you impose on it.

Either way I wouldn't feel comfortable ordering material without certs.

 

[pdybeck]

"I think what most people are trying to say is there isn't any reason asking for certs should cost you significantly more."


That was my immediate thought when we started hearing this. I wanted to check here to see if others have been hearing similar information or not. There is a 3rd possibility - things have gotten lost in translation/understanding. I think often times this is the case, especially when you are working with and communicating with people that are not trained and don't understand these issues. All too common, I think.

Pete

 

[stanweld]

pdybeck,
If your suppliers are purchasing the material only to the SAE/AISI grade, they'll have a hard time to provide Mill Certs. If they are purchasing the material to A-311, they would only have a problem if they did not request the CMTR from the manufacturer and did not maintain heat/lot traceability or similarly purchased the material from another non manufacturer supplier. A supplier who purchases and controls its materials in such a manner should be avoided. As metengr stated, audit your suppliers to determine their materials control methods.

 

[deanc]

Over the years I have asked to see all kinds of Certs.

Seldom a problem, but sometimes it was found that what the manufactuer got was not at all what they had ordered.

The paperwork should be part of the deal and if the supplier complains or resists, be very cautious.

Got a fax in one time with a forgotten sticky attached "See if this will make the A**H*** happy"...it didn't.

There are some who I am sure will type in whatever you need.