Mentorship: Is it still around? 8

[ash060]

Just wanted to get other engineers' perspectives about the availability and prevalence of mentorship in the engineering profession. I can only speak for myself, but it seems that it is slowly eroding. When I first started engineering, I never really was given an real direction or advice from a senior engineer regrading the practice of engineering. Don't get me wrong I would ask questions and get answers, but it would be from various engineers in the office and it almost always seemed that I was wasting their time for asking the question. I would pick up little pieces of wisdom here and there, but I never had a mentor, a go-to person that would teach me things about the profession. I became more jaded as I got more questionable responses to my queries. For example, one day I asked my supervisor if I should design a basement wall for at-rest or active pressure and his response was "What is at-rest pressure?", after that I limited my questions and started to grow my reference library because I just stopped believing older engineers.

Besides my second job (which only lasted one year, and I learned more in that one year than any other time in my career), I have never had a mentor. From my observations at other offices, it doesn't seem that I am an outlier.

Am I just a special case or is it a real trend? What is everyone else's experience?

 

[IRstuff]

"Whole point of being a Senior engineer is you've made mistakes that learnt from them"

That does not prevent mistakes that you haven't learned from yet. Additionally, being senior, with that kind of attitude will make you complacent and actually more prone to mistakes. Moreover, unless you are a one-man shop, you are not immune to others on your team making mistakes

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[Careful]

"That does not prevent mistakes that you haven't learned from yet." Perhaps, but that's hopefully not as many as a brand new engineer.

 

[CWB1]

JMO but part of being an ethical engineer is recognizing that nobody is infallible and that part of giving due diligence is simply having others review your work regardless of your position.

Getting back to "trials by fire," those that I referred to previously simply involve seniors and managers paying attention and learning juniors' existing strengths/weaknesses/skills the first few weeks on the job in a sort of "trial period" before investing too much in training.

 

[lacajun]

SparWeb, you won't know about the universities until you try.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[Sparweb]

Pam,
Don't let my secret get out: I didn't graduate from a university! That's why they don't want me.
This subject is timely for me, because I'm already talking to ASET about mentorhip opportunities, but I haven't been matched up yet.
In their eyes, I have a very >narrow< professional discipline. Also, not a lot of aerospace grads in Alberta (not any more, that is).
Now, I do have a very multidisiplinary mindset and background, but stuff I do as a hobby, and various stuff I have learned from the Aero business, just doesn't fit into standardized forms and is difficult to add to the criteria the administration of the ASET can use to match me to a student.

STF

 

[lacajun]

SparWeb, my lips are sealed!

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[Sparweb]

Thanks. I know I can trust you.
Not getting any responses from ASET, nor any replies to emails I sent to the new hires at the company either. You can only go so far, then it becomes obvious that they are not interested.

So the thing with mentorship is that BOTH parties need to be interested.

STF

 

[lacajun]

SparWeb, I liken all relationships to an AND gate in that both parties have to be a 1 to yield a 1. Some men have been angered by that, which I don't understand as the principle seems obvious. Ya' just never know...

P.S. Those were not men interested in me at all either.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[dbooker630]

Like SparWeb I have also benefitted greatly from mentorship. When I started as an engineering co-op back in the 70's I worked with many 'old-timers' who showed me the ropes about materials, especially the things that don't necessary appear in the textbooks. The mentorship was informal but the chief engineer took me under his wing and showed me many things and encouraged me to make decisions and be unafraid in my work. Now that I am considered an 'old-timer' myself, I also find a lack of opportunities to mentor young engineers within my company. I don't plan to work forever so it would be nice to pass on what I learned to the younger engineers.

 

[Manifolddesigner]

The most irritating part, is that I work *at* a company that has mentor-ships, but because I don't work *for* the company, I'm not eligible for such things.
Dumbass contractors will stay dumbass contractors. They must.
I can single out senior engineers and ask them questions, but like someone above said, you always feel like you are taking up their valuable time.
At 36years old, I'm a career contractor now, just because I like to "eat".
I had a job interview *for* the company a couple weeks ago w/ a very senior guy. I didn't get past his phone interview and felt it was bs, that I would've done just fine if I'd had the opportunity for some kind of mentoring over the last 3.5 years.

 

[GregLocock]

That's the tradeoff with being a contractor. Why would a company spend resources educating someone who has less likelihood of a long term future with the company? Why train your competitor's future workforce?

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[Sparweb]

ManifoldDesigner,
That's a raw deal you've been given. For whatever reason the company has offered you employment but not under conditions that would encourage your loyalty. Make sure you reciprocate with your own loyalty.
I cannot see the point of guaranteeing that your workforce can show no long-term commitment to the company. It only makes sense if you assume management has already decided that the company need not be viable in about 10 years.

BTW,
Just an update for those waiting in eager suspense: my offer to ASET to mentor junior engineers has been met with silence.

STF

 

[WARose]

I don't know about the Automotive business.....but in what I do (consulting/working with EPC outfits) there isn't much difference between contract employees (aka "shoppers") and direct employees (except maybe 2 weeks notice for the layoff).

I would think (at 36) you would have picked up all you need to know without mentorship (but again: I don't know that much about the automotive biz). I worked a lot of contract jobs early on in my career......and I came out technically stronger than a lot of people who worked directly for some of the firms I was at. It's all about how much you can get exposed to and how quickly.

 

[GregLocock]

Here's what contractors get: $X per hour

Here's what permies get:

$Y per week
Overtime if approved
A pension scheme
Employer contribution to that scheme
Training
4 weeks annual leave
10 paid public holidays
1 week per year long service leave
Lease car
Career progression
A reasonable income protection insurance scheme

Here's what old permies get:

1.5 sick days a month that accrues to a maximum of 120 days
a defined benefit pension scheme aka the golden handcuff

I've been both a contractor and a permie at this company, at the time I was happy enough with the hourly rate, but in my only attempt at negotiation on pay I was taken on staff at almost the equivalent rate.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[Sparweb]

I would think (at 36) you would have picked up all you need to know without mentorship...

You would hope so, but probably not true in many industries. I work with a number of "juniors" but the knowledge and skill displayed by some recent grads is equal to that shown by some guys 10 years older. The latter may have worked under very cloistered conditions before arriving in our group. By the time I was 36 I was juggling multiple aircraft modification projects simultaneously, sometimes on my own for several days/weeks without supervision except the final reports. Now I work around some 40-year-olds who can't spec a bolt. What makes it tolerable are the energetic ones who soak in everything you tell them.

STF

 

[WARose]

Here's what contractors get: $X per hour

Here's what permies get:

$Y per week
Overtime if approved
A pension scheme
Employer contribution to that scheme
Training
4 weeks annual leave
10 paid public holidays
1 week per year long service leave
Lease car
Career progression
A reasonable income protection insurance scheme

Here's what old permies get:

1.5 sick days a month that accrues to a maximum of 120 days
a defined benefit pension scheme aka the golden handcuff

I've been both a contractor and a permie at this company, at the time I was happy enough with the hourly rate, but in my only attempt at negotiation on pay I was taken on staff at almost the equivalent rate.

At some of the jobs I've had....."X" was so much greater than "Y", it balanced out the bennies. (This is not to mention the fact a lot of shops offer paid vacation and holidays themselves.)

Prior to the crash (in 2008), it was about 3 straight years of calls from shops offering as much as 3 figures per hour. Sometimes I wish I had gone that route, because all my loyalty got me canned in 2009 anyway. But being a shopper means being on the road a lot and i don't want to do that (all the time).

 

[Sparweb]

So what ratio can be tolerated long-term, of permanent employees to contract employees in a typical engineering department?
I admit that's a very rhetorical question there - but can we at least agree that a high proportion of contract employees can lead to very unpredictable events?


STF

 

[IRstuff]

We typically hire contractors for specific jobs that they're supposed to be qualified for. And, we hire contractors only when there is no long-term assurance of continued work. Under these constraints, what would be the point of training from which we expect no future benefits?

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

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[WARose]

So what ratio can be tolerated long-term, of permanent employees to contract employees in a typical engineering department?

All depends on who is deciding what is "tolerable" (and what "long-term" actually is). I worked at one place where everyone in the mechanical department was contract (including the department head).....and nobody seemed to take note of it (or care). In fact, only about a quarter of the office I worked in were direct.

I admit that's a very rhetorical question there - but can we at least agree that a high proportion of contract employees can lead to very unpredictable events?

Unquestionably. But I'm not making the rules.....just trying to live with 'em. The only time I get mad is when someone who plays by those rules tries to pitch me a bunch of BS as if they are different. I interviewed with a outfit here in town (one of the largest EPC outfits in the country) some years back and the guy starts giving it to me that I've worked as a contractor. Well, I reminded him that they are the layoff kings of the engineering world with tons of shoppers working for them and I didn't want to hear it. (To my surprise, I still got an offer....but he didn't like that little refresher.)

Guy must have thought I've been walking around this town the last 20 years without talking to anyone else.

 

[GregLocock]

Our drafting shop was largely contract, 20 years ago. For reasons unknown to me that gently morphed into mostly staff. On the engineering side I vaguely remember a figure of 40% contractors as being containable. We are running so many programs with so many J1 dates that the flow of work is essentially constant, that I can see. In the good old days we had months where we were just waiting for the next phase of prototypes, so we could do all sorts of mad investigative projects - in my department we had a fleet of $1 cars that were used for mad experiments. Sadly that doesn't happen any more, so technically we don't do a whole lot of development.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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