migrant engineers to Canada Australia New Zealand

[opsops]

All are facing similar issues; the goverments bring in people according to a "socialist" type central planning system to boost the population numbers. Baby boomers are retiring and somebody needs to prop the retirement funding; ie taxes.

Obviosly the selection process is based on age and education. Goverments don't desire criminals for good reasons.

However, what people do when they are already in the country is nobody's problem. Somebody needs to do the work that locals don't. Isn't it?

Regulation, certification is nothing else but a close shop approach, to weed competition. It used to be that east european engineering education was very very competitive and good.

I guess is bad luck for the foreign engineers, dubbed and forced to take what is left on the table



hope there are no typos for the picky ones....

 

[GregLocock]

There were a couple of typos, but, What was your point?

Where I work, in my section, there's two native born Australians, two Poms (including me), a German and a Finn.

Now, I may be wrong, perhaps we are doing some horrible job that no native Australian wants to do, but in fact we are highly paid professionals who have interesting jobs in (admittedly) a somewhat rocky industry.

I'd agree that technically East European graduates can be very good. On the other hand a surprisingly high proportion have chips on their shoulders, and whine a lot.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[opsops]

I read some discussions about the engineering market in Canada and how difficult it is to enter the engineering job market.

There are good engineers around the world regardless of country. That's a fact. There are also places that provide more professional opportunities than others.

People say that Australia is currently experiencing good opportunities in Oil/Gas/Mining. Although I ve been told you need to have some contacts to enter the industry. For years engineering dept in Australia have consolidated or closed. Engineering placement rates were low to medium compare to other fields.

Things may have changed from early mid 90' when I was considering grad studies in Aussie.

How are now salaries for prof engineers w/10 years experience in manufacturing /mechanical/process engineering ?

 

[GregLocock]

70-100 thousand, depending on industry and ability. Far more than that in oil, gas and mining.

"For years engineering dept in Australia have consolidated or closed. Engineering placement rates were low to medium compare to other fields. "

Really? I've never know a /competent automotive engineer/ who was unable to find work for more than 3 months, since 1990. Sometimes you have to commute, or move interstate, admittedly, as they are closing South Australia down.





Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[opsops]

Do you still have tarifs on cars or do you have parallel importing allowed?

If I remember right sometime in the 90's the tarifs were eliminated in New Zealand and suddenly, a flood of cars were allowed in.

There were 3 or 4 assembly plants that had to close. I wonder what happen to all the skilled people. I believe some went over to Australia.

What are the prospects of the local manufacturing; moving to China?

 

[GregLocock]

We have a 10% tarriff on imported cars. According to economists that isn't enough to act as a trade barrier. It drops to 5% in 2010, then disappears in 2015.

Yes, we have a lot of Kiwi engineers over here. On the other hand several I know of went to the USA, the UK and other places.

I'd say local manufacturing is quite likely to move to China - certainly many of our parts are manufactured over there now. I imagine that there will be some political backlash over this, down the track, for instance when Mitsubishi pull out, or another big supplier goes down, the current government might crack and actually do something about it. I'm not actually convinced this is a great idea, heavily protected industries around the world (airlines, aircraft manufacturers, car manufacturers, farmers, always farmers, steel industry etc) never seem to change much and for the most part just keep on relying on government bail-outs.

Neither NZ or Oz is really big enough to support a thriving automotive industry, unless we export. Which is what we do. Australian automotive exports run about 4 billion a year, components just under 3 billion, and engineering/project management is probably of the order of $0.2 billion.

Offset against that is automotive imports of about 20 billion (parts and cars) - so we have a lot to do.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[Ashereng]

There are good engineers around the world regardless of country.

There are bad engineers around the world, regardless of country.

The hard part is to tell the difference.

As with anything, you feel more comfortable with what you know. So, if you are an Aussie grad, chances are, you are familiar with Aussie universities - hence, you have a better comfort level hiring a grad from one of those schools than say a university in Khazakstan, yes?

By the way, I am still uncertain as to what your point is. Would you mind stating it again?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[opsops]

That exactly the point, the decision is subjective and not objective. What if the engineer from Khazakstan is better than the Aussie chap? The point with engineering is that usually it is easy to test and figure out the skill sets of an engineer. It's measurable.

Specifically about Khazakstan I would say there is a good probability that an engineer there would be good as a result of Russian engineering, space missions and petroluem. Maybe their English might be not that great though.

I had the opportunity to work with some russian engineers/science people and they were damn good....but paid peanuts. I am not russian...

 

[GregLocock]

Oh yes, what's this objective test for engineers? Which companies use it? In practice are their products any better than the average?

I still don't see your point. We've acknowledged that engineers vary in skill, and many countries produce good engineers.

If the engineer from Khazakstan was a better fit we'd employ him, all other things being equal. We aren't insane. And as is obvious from my first post, there is no problem with nationailty as such.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[moltenmetal]

The fact of the matter is, Canada once had a system which did a pretty good job of ensuring that only those "skilled" people that the economy actually needed were permitted to immigrate. We also had a system which told prospective immigrants that they were free to come only if they settled in parts of the country that actually needed their labour and agreed to remain there for a certain minimum period. The system of quotas and geographic restrictions was removed due to intense lobbying efforts on the part of both business interests and the immigrant community. It's ironic that previous generations of immigrants won the right for new generations of immigrants to enter Canada and become under-employed if they so choose.

Combine those factors with a 12-fold increase in the number of engineering immigrants entering the country each year over the decade between 1991 and 2001, and you've got a recipie for engineers driving taxicabs in cities like Toronto and Vancouver and Montreal. See

http://www.geocities.com/martinsmoltenmetal/index.htm

for the stats if you're interested.

No politician will even discuss restrictions on immigration, even directed ones intended to reduce harm to prospective immigrants, for fear of picket signs in front of their constituency office. In a country of immigrants and their descendants, no politician can risk being labeled anti-immigrant!

As to the use of professional licenses or certifications as a means to restrain trade and act as a "closed shop", for engineering in Canada that is utter hogwash. In Ontario, Canada's most populous province, we now license more foreign-trained engineers every year than we do locally-educated engineers. Something near 70% of the foreign-trained engineers that apply have their educational credentials accepted by the local licensure body without having to write a single technical examination. One can even start the licensure process BEFORE immigrating. A provisional license is granted to those who are missing only the one year of mentored Canadian experience required for licensure. All that said, a P.Eng. license here is neither necessary to find employment as an engineer nor is it any guarantee of employment once you've got it.

 

[Ashereng]

...a P.Eng. license here is neither necessary to find employment as an engineer nor is it any guarantee of employment once you've got it.

I agree with the second part of the statement.

I am curious about the first part. If you want to work as an engineer, what do you need then? Or do you mean "engineering type" of work?



"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[anu2004]

ok, what are other options in the technical field for foreign trained engineers? i'm really not interesting in getting another bachelor's degree.

 

[GregLocock]

You can do anything, but first you have to ask the right question.

What on earth do you mean?

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[moltenmetal]

Ashereng: Ontario has a Certificate of Authorization system of engineering licensure, permitting business entities to engage in the practice of providing engineering services. Under such a Certificate of Authorization, a licensed professional engineer or engineers agree to take professional responsibility for the professional engineering work done under that Certificate, regardless who actually does the work. So if the firm has a C of A, the firm is free to choose any person- licensed or unlicensed, engineer or non-engineer- it feels is capable of doing the work required. The signatory P.Eng. is then in the position of having to review and accept, or reject, the professional engineering work these people do, accepting career-terminating professional responsibility for anything errors they miss... Despite the fact that it sounds like a very thankless job, there is no shortage of P.Eng.s who are signatories to Cs of A. In fact, there are some who are signatory to more than ONE C of A, which is yet another matter!

Ontario also has an exception from licensure for engineering work done by employees on the means of production of their employers. Though the exception in the Act is actually quite narrow, it is broadly interpreted. Ontario borders several US states with general exemptions from licensure for virtually all engineers working in manufacturing or other industrial settings. In practice, Ontario's "industrial exception" from licensure is viewed as a de-facto "exemption" from licensure for virtually any engineer whose makes products rather than generating drawings and specifications- even if those products are "engineered products"!

Most Canadian provinces have similar systems.

An engineering graduate without a license is restricted from using the term "Professional Engineer" or its abbreviation P.Eng. in any way. They are also restricted from using the term "engineer" in any way which might mislead the public into believing that they have a license, including calling themselves a "consulting engineer" etc. And they may not provide engineering services directly to the public- they may not "hang up their shingle" and go to work for themselves as engineers. But nobody can stop you from putting "B.A.Sc., XXXX engineering" on your business card, resume etc. if you in fact posess this qualification. So the restriction in terms of using the title "engineer" is a bit of a paper tiger as well.

Accordingly, the only person the average engineer in Canada needs to convince of their engineering skill and credentials is their boss, or perhaps occasionally their customer. A license is viewed as nice, but not really necessary. Perhaps that explains why less than 25% of Ontario engineering graduates bother to go on to get a P.Eng. license.

There are rare exceptions to this rule, generally associated with civil/structural work and a few other areas where a P.Eng. stamp is required by certain other pieces of provincial legislation (i.e. the TSSA Act or Building Code Act etc.). The rest of us continue to pay money for an engineering license which means precious little in terms of providing an exclusive right to practice. Some of the very best Ontario engineers I know have renounced their licenses as a worthless yearly expense.

Foreign-trained engineers seeking employment in Canada often wrongly focus on the licensure process as the source of their problems. The media, in their ignorance, propagate this mythology because they love an "underdog" story. The fact of the matter is, we could hand out licenses to all comers and it wouldn't get most of these poor b@stards out of their taxicabs or factory jobs. The only thing which will solve the problem for them is to provide a better match between the supply of engineers and their marketplace demand on a regional and discipline-specific basis.

 

[Ashereng]

moltenmetal,

Yes. I agree. You don't need to be an engineer to do "engineering type" work.



"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[opsops]

well said and explained. Somehow I believe all the above 3 countries have similar issues and simlar policies. \\


How are the engineering opportunities in Asia? any experience? Mine was a brief one about 10 years ago, and would like to consider it again.

All suggestions are appreciated.

 

[ozstressman]

I am an Australian aircraft structures engineer on the verge of moving to Canada for a year. I have read the above posts and the background information on Moltenmetal's link, and I am now quite worried about my employment prospects.

Can anyone give me some advice on the Canadian aerospace job market? I would be most appreciative.

 

[moltenmetal]

oz- you'll have an easier time of it than the hordes of Indian, Chinese and easter European people you'll be competing against, merely because of your facility with English and the familiarity many here will have with the nature and extent of your education. But I know of a fair number of American engineering immigrants to Canada who have found themselves without work for a fair time before finding something suitable. Coming here without work is risky at best. Definitely stay away from Toronto!

As to the aerospace industry in specific, you'll need to talk to somebody in that business- I'm not.

 

[opsops]

how salaries in Canada stack up to OZ?? vs US? in :

mechanical
materials/process
civil

thanks

 

[opsops]

In New Zealand the engineering market is weak and low tech. pay is no great either.

Recognition is poor and everybody is an engineer even the hammer boy.

The only field where seems to be some activity is civil engineering as money comes from goverment budgets.


Everything else is basic... no challenges

Also there are many migrants, competiting for very few jobs. Priority is usually given to UK migrants, funny enough even before local graduates. I guess it has to do with the fact that the locals are modest in presenting their abilities, while UK boys overinflate their capabilities. The superiority complex!

Best technical market is US