Just curious, but do people feel like the job outlook for engineers is improving with the larger economy? We've technically been in a recovery for a while now, but the engineering jobs being advertised seem few and far between, if there are any at all. Am I missing something, or is this a jobless recovery for engineers as well? The only jobs I see being advertised are so specific with their requirements that over 90% of the engineers that apply probably aren't considered qualified. Your thoughts?
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More employment opportunities for engineers? 5
- Thread starter cotelecom
- Start date
This is a jobless recovery for many professions, with the unemployment rate upwards of 10%. I've been out of work for about 6 months and things aren't looking up.
There are two people I know with 15+ years of experience who are taking jobs with a $25,000 pay cut.
It doesn't seem to be getting any better.
There are two people I know with 15+ years of experience who are taking jobs with a $25,000 pay cut.
It doesn't seem to be getting any better.
I am a structural engineer in the commercial/industrial realm. Commercial buildings such as retail and office buildings is extremely slow and appears that it will be for sometime. The vacancy rates of buildings is quite high right now and as such rental rates are dropping. It would take a significant uptick in the economy to start to fill the vacant space in order for companies to take on the cost of new construction.
Industrial clients seem a little more inclined to spend money, but much of that is for long over due projects, not from a need for expansion.
The latest number from AIA Billing index is still less than 50 which represents a precieved decline in future billings. I think that your perception is correct.
I do know engineers that are extermely busy right now. This is largely due to layoffs and the lack of confidence by management that the workload is anything other than a temporary uptick.
Industrial clients seem a little more inclined to spend money, but much of that is for long over due projects, not from a need for expansion.
The latest number from AIA Billing index is still less than 50 which represents a precieved decline in future billings. I think that your perception is correct.
I do know engineers that are extermely busy right now. This is largely due to layoffs and the lack of confidence by management that the workload is anything other than a temporary uptick.
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GregTirevold
Mechanical
I think engineering, in most disciplines, is very limiting for long term career change. If you design widgets form company A for 10 years then for whatever reason have to switch jobs you are most likely going to find yourself designing similar widgets at company B.
An engineer's skill set is not as transferable between industries as say a computer programmer, and the job postings cotelecom mentions are evidence of it. Companies are posting job ads that could really only be filled by poaching a competitor's employees or laid off workers. This doesn't mean you shouldn't apply though since companies often put up such "wishlists" just to see what hits they get when in fact they are willing to accept less.
An engineer's skill set is not as transferable between industries as say a computer programmer, and the job postings cotelecom mentions are evidence of it. Companies are posting job ads that could really only be filled by poaching a competitor's employees or laid off workers. This doesn't mean you shouldn't apply though since companies often put up such "wishlists" just to see what hits they get when in fact they are willing to accept less.
It is just like selling a product (yourself) If you are selling a general product, there are lots of compedetors. If you are selling in a nitch market, then you are limited in a different way.
Said another way I can find another job, if I am willing to move to the places the job is. If I were a generalist, I may not have to move, but I might have to take a pay cut.
When you enter the engineering field, you in a way choose which path you take. That's life.
Said another way I can find another job, if I am willing to move to the places the job is. If I were a generalist, I may not have to move, but I might have to take a pay cut.
When you enter the engineering field, you in a way choose which path you take. That's life.
oftentimes a finely crafted employment ad with unusually distinct job qualifications are in fact designed to apply only to a single, known , applicant, who happens to be working with an immigrant visa. Such jobs usually need to be advertised so that if a citizen engineer has the correct qualifications then they would get the job ahead of the immigrant, but by crafting the qualifications so that only the known individual qualifies, he gets the job.
Sometimes the same process occurs with scholarships,; this process with scholarships may be viewed as a tricky way to steeer money to a known applicant .
Sometimes the same process occurs with scholarships,; this process with scholarships may be viewed as a tricky way to steeer money to a known applicant .
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moltenmetal
Chemical
In my experience many employers state their ideal list of qualifications as if they were mandatory. Smart applicants show in their cover letters how their experience matches most of what is required, and how quickly they've learned new stuff in past (as a means to cover the requirements not currently on their resume).
As to the argument about transferrability of skills, perhaps the best way to say this is that a specialist engineer's skillset is not easily transferred to a new specialty. While it is possible, employers don't feel they have the time for it. A specialist's transition from one INDUSTRY to another is far easier, provided you can get by the HR folks who only look for XXX on your resume.
As to the argument about transferrability of skills, perhaps the best way to say this is that a specialist engineer's skillset is not easily transferred to a new specialty. While it is possible, employers don't feel they have the time for it. A specialist's transition from one INDUSTRY to another is far easier, provided you can get by the HR folks who only look for XXX on your resume.
When employers can afford to cherry pick then they will be fussy.
Before the downturn I was interviewing for jobs in things like petroleum that I had no experience in, afterwards I was struggling to get an interview even when I ticked all the boxes.
Accept what you can.
GregTirrevold,
I disagree that engineering is limiting, I think the only time it is limiting is if you spend 10 years doing a very narrow range of tasks. I have had jobs of very different parts of the industry in specialist sign, telecoms, temporary works and industrial companies all of which are very different from each other.
What you need to do is highlight transferrable skillsets.
Before the downturn I was interviewing for jobs in things like petroleum that I had no experience in, afterwards I was struggling to get an interview even when I ticked all the boxes.
Accept what you can.
GregTirrevold,
I disagree that engineering is limiting, I think the only time it is limiting is if you spend 10 years doing a very narrow range of tasks. I have had jobs of very different parts of the industry in specialist sign, telecoms, temporary works and industrial companies all of which are very different from each other.
What you need to do is highlight transferrable skillsets.
TJOrlowski
Mechanical
If you're posting from the US, I'm not sure from where this opening statement originates. We've had negative GDP growth for the entire year, and only a temporary decrease in joblessness (driven largely by the census). The economy shed another 50,000+ jobs in August.
The outlook is not bright, and it's driven mostly by uncertainty caused by Washington DC.
-TJ Orlowski
Civil/struc. engineering is not trend-based like most of the thriving industries of today. Sizing a beam or a sewer pipe requires nothing new that it did 50 years ago. Civil engineers that make green products like water treatment technologies will come out ahead in the new market, because they are the rare breed of engineers that innovate. A civil engineering bachelors alone is worthless, deservedly so, in today's market. A non-ABET accredited degree in environmental engineering from a community college will give you more coursework and focus than an ABET degree in civil engineering.
The ONLY marketable thing about civil engineering is government regulations and the fact that the gov't requires a PE stamp. That's it. In fact, the only civil engineers I know that are busy work directly or indirectly for the government. The profession is such that innovation is frowned upon, unless you consider your minority status or political maneuvering innovation
The ONLY marketable thing about civil engineering is government regulations and the fact that the gov't requires a PE stamp. That's it. In fact, the only civil engineers I know that are busy work directly or indirectly for the government. The profession is such that innovation is frowned upon, unless you consider your minority status or political maneuvering innovation
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- Thread starter
- #16
Atlengpe, you sound like an advertisement for an environmental engineering degree program. I'm not sure where you get the idea that a civil engineering degree is worthless. Most 'engineering' degrees are in fact far more valuable than nearly every other program offered at most universities (with the exception of maybe business/accounting and medicine). One would only need to look at the BLS projections for growing industries and even careers that are in-demand as we speak. Engineering is almost always at the top. No doubt that everything is slow at the moment, but that will change in the future......
If I were to list the top three most 'worthless' (your word, not mine) engineering BACHELORS degrees, I would probably put environmental engineering at the top of that list, with geotech and structural civil immediately following. Nearly 100% of environmental consulting companies require a masters degree, and the same could probably be said for geotech and structural as well - simply check the help wanted ads if you don't believe me. If you want an engineering job in any of those 3 niches, you'll amost have to stay in school for a masters degree. Unfortunately, I'm not sure taking on that much additional student debt makes much sense since people in those industries don't seem to make much more money than other civil engineers in other disciplines, not to mention less than nearly every single other non-civil engineering discipline too. One could probably validly argue now that the financial and mental hardship one must endure to pursue and complete any difficult engineering degree, as they all are at good universities, simply isn't worth it anymore. For example, I know several nurses and accountants that make far more than every engineering acquaintance I can speak of, with the same level of experience or less. Yet the aptitude required and difficulty of these school programs is infinitely less than that of engineering. Why study engineering then, unless one is determined to be become an 'engineer'?
I think I'll have to refrain from putting up these non-technical threads on here from now on. I've gotten everything from people blaming Obama for the recession, claiming the economy is better in Europe (I only recently worked there, so believe me when I say it isn't), and now calling civil engineering degrees worthless and selling non-ABET environmental programs at community colleges instead.
I had originally thought putting up such a thread my elicit some intelligent and insightful responses, given that this site is primarily used by 'engineers' or people claiming to be. I guess I was wrong. Sorry for wasting everyone's time.......
If I were to list the top three most 'worthless' (your word, not mine) engineering BACHELORS degrees, I would probably put environmental engineering at the top of that list, with geotech and structural civil immediately following. Nearly 100% of environmental consulting companies require a masters degree, and the same could probably be said for geotech and structural as well - simply check the help wanted ads if you don't believe me. If you want an engineering job in any of those 3 niches, you'll amost have to stay in school for a masters degree. Unfortunately, I'm not sure taking on that much additional student debt makes much sense since people in those industries don't seem to make much more money than other civil engineers in other disciplines, not to mention less than nearly every single other non-civil engineering discipline too. One could probably validly argue now that the financial and mental hardship one must endure to pursue and complete any difficult engineering degree, as they all are at good universities, simply isn't worth it anymore. For example, I know several nurses and accountants that make far more than every engineering acquaintance I can speak of, with the same level of experience or less. Yet the aptitude required and difficulty of these school programs is infinitely less than that of engineering. Why study engineering then, unless one is determined to be become an 'engineer'?
I think I'll have to refrain from putting up these non-technical threads on here from now on. I've gotten everything from people blaming Obama for the recession, claiming the economy is better in Europe (I only recently worked there, so believe me when I say it isn't), and now calling civil engineering degrees worthless and selling non-ABET environmental programs at community colleges instead.
I had originally thought putting up such a thread my elicit some intelligent and insightful responses, given that this site is primarily used by 'engineers' or people claiming to be. I guess I was wrong. Sorry for wasting everyone's time.......
TJOrlowski
Mechanical
Given that the entire premise of your OP was based a fallacy, I would agree that your thread was a waste of everyone's time. I wouldn't say it was because of all the dopplegangers posing as thoughtful engineers on this forum.
-TJ Orlowski
On the other hand, this is cotelecom's thread. It generated some interesting comments. Especially his recommendation not to study engineering unless one is determined to become an engineer. That advice is helpful to all of us. We should have a group touring universities dissuading potential engineers.
HAZOP at
HAZOP at
Pretty much what you would expect really.
Whilst there has been a slight upturn at least in official figures many companies are still running at below full capacity and many have downsized and laid off staff and have one person doing two half jobs.
The initial upturn will be taken up with slack that is still within companies and any new hires will be for more specific roles rather than general positions that can be covered.
At least in the UK there is an increase in VAT just around the corner and huge cut backs in the public sector, confidence is still low with the people I know. Companies are still wary to take on new hires when many have lost money over the last two years and may have to lay new hires off again before they can see a return.
Whilst there has been a slight upturn at least in official figures many companies are still running at below full capacity and many have downsized and laid off staff and have one person doing two half jobs.
The initial upturn will be taken up with slack that is still within companies and any new hires will be for more specific roles rather than general positions that can be covered.
At least in the UK there is an increase in VAT just around the corner and huge cut backs in the public sector, confidence is still low with the people I know. Companies are still wary to take on new hires when many have lost money over the last two years and may have to lay new hires off again before they can see a return.
The response to my post sums up the attitude of today's engineers. They are incapable of understanding or adapting to changing markets and only think in terms of "I deserve respect because I went to XYZ ABET accredited school and I have a license" or "traditionally employers hire XYZ during Q economic cycles and it will rebound". Guess what folks? You're in for a shocker on this one. The jobs WON'T be returning this time (for the better).
BTW, this forum is called "where is engineering going in the next 5 years". I offered my insight that env. engineering and water/wastewater treatment technologies sectors will boom. Instead of narrowly asking the question "where are the jobs??? wah wah wah", he should be asking where is the market going and how can I educate myself, get involved, and jump onto being an innovator and CREATE something, instead of waiting around for people to hand you some math problem on a silver platter like you've been taught to think should happen.
BTW, this forum is called "where is engineering going in the next 5 years". I offered my insight that env. engineering and water/wastewater treatment technologies sectors will boom. Instead of narrowly asking the question "where are the jobs??? wah wah wah", he should be asking where is the market going and how can I educate myself, get involved, and jump onto being an innovator and CREATE something, instead of waiting around for people to hand you some math problem on a silver platter like you've been taught to think should happen.
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