More firings? 11

[WARose]

Has anyone else noticed more out and out terminations/firings in the business? Use to be, they'd target people at layoff time (to avoid lawsuits)....now there is more and more straight up fired type releases.

What is really disturbing me in some of this is: I've seen some really sharp people getting canned over the years.....I suspect some of this is: a lot of companies are taking on the Mission Impossible type jobs.....and looking for someone to blame when it blows up in their face.

 

[miningman]

In my opinion , we as society need more firings , not less. Both Canada and the UK have relatively generous " stay at home " payments to temporary laid off employees. Not sure how things are in the USA but I suspect theres something similiar. We as a society will be paying for this for decades. All its doing is delaying the inevitable. Bite the bullet and lets get on with resetting our expectations.

 

[IRstuff]

The firings, particularly of "sharp people" who are likely older as well, is probably prelude to hiring a bunch of new grads who haven't found a home yet. Since this is a buyer's market, the new grads can be bought on the cheap.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[SteelPE]

WARose, is this something new that maybe related to the virus?

As far as I know people are still going relatively strong here.... I work as an independent contractor and was on my way to a banner year when the virus hit. I worked straight though from March to the end of June. I have only recently seen a down tick in work coming in. I do have a few new projects coming in, but nothing as big as what I was dealing with March to June.

If this is virus related it might be time to tighten my belt a bit.

 

[WARose]

WARose, is this something new that maybe related to the virus?

No. I saw it both before and after this started.

 

[FACS]

No one knows why people get fired except for the people involved.
You can assume and propose reasons all day long, they mean nothing.

Worry about yourself

 

[swertel]

I see the pattern, too. Almost everyone at my previous employer now has a warning against them and are on a performance improvement program. One more strike and they can be fired.

My strike was because another engineer didn't approve a document revision in time and I was in charge of the project, that's why it was late. Neither that employee nor his boss got a reprimand, though, for not doing their jobs. Why? Because they already had a mark against them. This was a made up excuse to justify my termination the future should upper management deem it necessary.

Layoffs require severance.
Firing does not.

--Scott
www.aerornd.com

 

[Rabbit12]

I was part of managers meetings for the structural group at my last company. I can't recall anyone getting "fired for cause". We did have a couple of people who were let go under the guise of a reduction in force but the company probably had cause to fire them.

I'm certain some decisions on who to keep during reductions in force factor in the age of the employee. A guy close to retirement that's a good but not great hand is more at risk than a younger engineer that's good but lacks the experience of the older guy. It's essentially age discrimination.

 

[TheTick]

Every one of my scorch marks is a badge of honor.

 

[EdStainless]

swertel, I see the 'race to the bottom' in HR talent as in most areas of management. The building of a case that makes legal action by a discharged employee more difficult is now considered SOP. My last employer did this as a routine practice. Their internal policy let them cut your severance in half if there was 'cause'. The funny thing is that in almost every case they require a lot of extra time and BS from the managers involved, and if they would just terminate people earlier and pay full severance it would cost the same and save trouble.

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[CWB1]

With few exceptions, the only difference I've seen between mass-layoffs during downturns and individuals laid during good times is that management schmoozes the later group a bit more. Usually most everyone knows that those folks are being let go for-cause whether incompetence or other failures, or bc they did something unprofessional, but to avoid issues/lawsuits management usually gives severance, a referral, and kind words at the exit interview. IME if someone is fired in a negative way then they have likely done something significantly illegal, unethical, or arguably so and in several cases those folks were arrested immediately before or after being terminated.

Whether/not folks deserve to be let go is another story. I do believe that many companies and managers choose to get rid of both great and terrible employees unnecessarily on a regular ala the Jack Welch bs methodologies to ensure their own positions and attempt to minimize employee overhead. I also believe that most employees would gladly give their heartfelt loyalty to a company for an entire career if kept and treated half-decently, and IME the most successful companies are the ones that hire good employees and keep them long-term. That said, there are many engineers in every age bracket that need to be in another profession due to their own laziness. I have no issues with folks willing to learn, however when folks refuse to learn CAD or perform other basic engineering tasks necessary for their position, then I take offense.

As to this downturn, if you're employed and busy then I'd recommend celebrating by banking your paycheck bc you might not have another for awhile. Many aren't, and even the govt is cutting back severely and going through mass layoffs. I concur with miningman on the notion that we will be paying for the first shutdowns for decades, and I try not to consider the possibility of a second round.

 

[pmover]

most people are at-will employees and being terminated can occur at any time w/out cause. the same applies than when the employee departs the company. no reason or cause need be given.

 

[Lomarandil]

pmover, that depends pretty heavily on geography and culture.

As I understand it (which is not very well) in my current geography, any downsizing is legally required to begin with the youngest employees in the company -- regardless of title, performance, experience or seniority. Purely age.

----
just call me Lo.

 

[WARose]

No one knows why people get fired except for the people involved.
You can assume and propose reasons all day long, they mean nothing.

Worry about yourself

I'm self employed. But I was talked into interviewing for a job a few weeks back and I knew a guy who worked there and was canned a year or two ago. I basically told them: if you had a problem with him.....you'll likely have a problem with me. (because he is top notch.) It got me thinking on this because he was always saying every schedule they got on a project was just ridiculous.

 

[Mahendra Gupta]

There is no denial of the fact that some project and team leaders can dismiss sharp people in the brutal spirit of competitiveness. However, I want to bring another point of view to the discussion.

More than we can blame office dynamics and politics, poor capacity planning is to blame. An organization should hire people only after analyzing the steady increase in future project demands. It helps them manage the tasks efficiently and avoid an unreasonable lay off process. Firing resources may appear as cost reduction to the company but frequent hiring and firing process costs a company three times than paying consistent employees. Refer this article to understand the basics of workforce capacity planning with the solutions to avoid dismissing employees.

 

[IRstuff]

Planning is great and all that, but life likes to throw curveballs, and one really can't predict overall business beyond about 3 months with degree of accuracy. To wit:

> We were on 3 related, multi-year contracts run under one prime contractor, whose sub was our direct customer that ballooned our workforce up to about 250 people; the government decided in yr 3 to terminate all contracts related to that procurement and we had to downsize to under 100 within about 6 months. The prime contractor had a poor track record of performance on certain contracts; this was one of them, but we were two levels down from that, but not insulated against the prime contract being canceled. As it was, we were understaffed throughout, specifically because of frequent change orders, and the desire to not have to layoff people because of minor perturbations in government funding, but there was no way to accommodate the cancellation of billions of dollars of contracts across the country.



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[Guest090822]

I worked my way up from a designer engineer to a manager over the years. I found that "sharp & productive" is a rare breed for a lot of engineers. We used to have to let "sharp" people go because they couldn't get out of their own way - or as the saying goes "analysis paralysis". Great engineers, but blew the budgets every time. To answer the OP's question, yes, I've seen more people just flat out fired over the last few years, even in government.

 

[mfgenggear]

Sometime is who you know and not what you know.

It has been my experience (my opinion)
To many contracts with the same sub or prime contractor.
A a company has to have diversity.
That way loss of some contracts people can get shuffled.

Contracts with in the company under bids,
Under schedules , with these crazy undoable
Schedules, then blames engineering for going over budget, and over the schedule.
Bah seen this to many times.
Who pays for incompetents at the higher
Management incompetents. You bet poop rolls down hill. The dam bean counters.

Example company makes 1/2 mil per month.
Does good always in the green good profit.
Company gets sold, corporate pushes for 1 mil per month. With out upgrading much needed equipment and personal.
Tighter schedules and pushes employees for higher production rates
Causes more scrap in consistent shipping and lower morale.
Only one main customer, customer becomes unhappy pulls work.
People get laid off.

 

[tz101]

IME if someone is fired in a negative way then they have likely done something significantly illegal, unethical, or arguably so and in several cases those folks were arrested immediately before or after being terminated.

Nope. Some of mine have just come from standing up for myself whenever management goes off the rails with stupidity. I put up with bullying and BS from no one. Before forming the wrong opinion about me, allow me to explain: I am in every day to do my job to the utmost quality. Unfortunately, when you start at most places these days, you have already been pegged, whether you know it or not. I am agreeable, but only to the extent the directive given to me is reasonable and ethical. Far too often, in today's culture, directives are neither. At that point, I speak up and out against idiocy. I have no problem doing that. That is the reason some like myself have gotten fired. Like TheTick said, I count those as badges of honor and hold my head high.

 

[tz101]

most people are at-will employees and being terminated can occur at any time w/out cause. the same applies than when the employee departs the company. no reason or cause need be given.

Exactly why leaving a bad company with no notice sometimes makes good sense. I have never worked for a company that gave me two-weeks notice before showing me the door. Why should I do bad actors any favors? Burning bridges is never advised, but there are some where I am happy the bridge is gone.