MP35N Strain Hardened Ground AMS 5844 3

[mfgenggear]

Hi All

Here is some strange material. apparently this material is
shipped in the solution annealed 1905 deg F (1040C)

hardness 47 HRc (Specification Requires 38 HRc min)

according to the Carpenter Data sheet this material requires
cold or work harden then aged at 800/1200 deg F for 800/1200 deg F for (4) hrs min.

I was supprized that this material was this hard in the
solutioned annealed condition.

is it cold worked at the mill?

 

[metengr]

mfgenggear;
The MP35N alloy can be specified in one of the three conditions below. There is no requirement for cold work/aging;

solution annealed - lowest strength, maximum ductility

cold worked -either at the mill or by a fabricator

cold worked and aged - highest strength level after cold working. During aging, precipitates form at locations in the cold worked structure locking in dislocations (further strengthening) introduced from work hardening processes.


The above conditions for this material can be provided by the mill or from a distributor/supplier.

 

[EdStainless]

I would only add that this material should never be put into service in an unaged condition. Depending on the prior cold work (if any) and the aging temp you can reach a tange of properties.
In reality almost everyone uses it in the cold worked and aged condition. If you didn't need that strength level there are easier ways to get there.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Plymouth Tube

 

[rosiegirl]

I need help. I have MP35N purchased from Carpenter as the first thread
Here is some strange material. apparently this material is
shipped in the solution annealed 1905 deg F (1040C)

hardness 47 HRc (Specification Requires 38 HRc min)

according to the Carpenter Data sheet this material requires
cold or work harden then aged at 800/1200 deg F for 800/1200 deg F for (4) hrs min.

I was supprized that this material was this hard in the
solutioned annealed condition.

is it cold worked at the mill?

I need to form the material on the ends to form a radius and need some assistance on the heat treat process that will afftect the ingrity of the material.

Is this material already heat treated? It states solution annealed. I need help today to support a Boeing test.

Thank you.
Rose

 

[mfgenggear]

Rose

It's my opinion that you need to purchase this material in the solution anneal condition only (depending on your hardness requirements) and not cold worked as my parts are. I did not mention in my previous post this material was ordered in accordance to AMS 5844 which requires the parts to be solution annealed & worked harden.

when forming/bending high strength steels I would solution anneal to dead soft before forming & between forming operations. but this was some serious forming. I have worked with Inconel 625 & 718, and other high temp alloys but never had the pleasure with MP35N.
but those material could be post aged to the required hardness.

Beaware in the carpenter data sheet it must be in the cold worked to attain the 38 HRc min rockwell hardness then aged
I did a sample test and aged (2) parts and the hardness remained the same.:\ remained at 47 HRc.

From Carpenter Data Sheet Page 4
(Please obtain a copy from your material supplier (Fry Steel) read the entire Data Sheet.

Annealing
1900/2000 deg F for one to four hours followed by cooling in air.

Aged
after work hardening aged in the temp of 800/1200 deg F
for increased srength, the alloy will respond to aging only if first work strengthened, no increase in strength will result from aging annealed material.

for optimum mechanical properties cold worked MP35N alloy should be aged at 1000/1100 deg F for four hours, then air cooled.

Hot Working (forged)
2159 deg F
to prevent surface tearing, deformation

Cold working
800 deg or below F (see data sheet)


any one disagree or wants to add please step in.

 

[rosiegirl]

Thank you for the information and now it takes me to another question. We purchased the material to AMS 5844. In your reply you state that the AMS 5844 is solution annealed and worked harden and is that the standard. In order to form this, we actually took bar stock and machined it to flat plate to wire edm a flat band that is .200 wide and .044 thick and 17 inches long. We need to be able to take both ends and form a 2 inch radius while maintain the yield of 275ksi and tensile of 284ksi. Will we need to anneal the material and then heat treat to get this?

I may sound confused, cause I am and need your assistance.
Rosiegirl

 

[mfgenggear]

Rose

Please be advised I am not a material engineer.
however this is what I do know from Experience that this material condition has 10% elongation, which is not condusive to forming.

With other materials, solution annealing and then aging would be no problem. This material it is a problem.
because it needs to be cold strengthen to obtain the desired properties.

I am not qualified to say if it will maintain the properties desired. but I believe it will not.
I think from the extream yielding the properties will be
changed. If some else can assist please do.
In addition I would recommend contacting Carpenter and request their advice.

I would recommend choosing an other type of material if possible.

 

[TVP]

Rosiegirl,

If you received the material certified to SAE AMS 5844, then Carpenter solution annealed the rod/bar, which was subsequently cold drawn to the final diameter. The tensile strength in the solution annealed + cold drawn condition will depend on the amount of cold reduction, but it will likely be less than 250 ksi, unless you requested it to be heavily cold drawn (> 60% cold reduction) so that the tensile strength of the as-received bar would be > 280 ksi. Can you confirm the exact mechanical properties of the as-received bar?

Next, it will be very difficult to make this part using the manufacturing method that you have described. Forming the ends to such a small radius using heavily cold-drawn bar that has subsequently been machined probably won't work. Trying to anneal the material and then form the part is a possibility, but you will not attain the strength levels of 275 ksi yield/284 ksi ultimate in the final part, due to the lack of cold working after solution annealing. Perhaps you could solution anneal the initial bar, then cold work the bar to the proper thickness and shape, and then age it to the right properties, but this sounds like it is outside your company's capabilities.

I suggest you work with Carpenter or H. C. Starck (

http://www.hcstarck.com/index.php?p...=&suchfeld=&suchstart=1011&prodselect_2=249|)

to acquire the material as a sheet/strip/plate in the solution heat treated condition or solution heat treated + work strengthened condition (perhaps only 20-30% cold reduction) and then manufacturing the part by rolling/forming it to the desired shape. The forming process would add incremental strain that hopefully would be sufficient such that the part could be finally aged to the desired strength levels. Obviously this will require close communication with the material supplier and the entity(ies) performing the forming and heat treating. Is this something that your company is capable of doing?

 

[rosiegirl]

Thank you team for the valuable information each one of you provided. Now I must ask for another question. Can anyone provide me a source for the MP35N in a plate 1/4 inch plate 24x24. I have not be able to find one.

Rosiegirl

 

[unclesyd]

We used to buy our MP35N from Timken-Latrobe. I don't know where to look now as Timken has cast Latrobe Steel aside.

You might try Technical Metals or any other supplier of aerospace materials for your plate.

http://www.techmetalsandmaterials.com/pg2.htm

You might give these people a call even though they don't list MP35N they may have a reference.

http://www.hightempmetals.com/technicaldata.php

 

[CoryPad]

The former Timken Latrobe is now Latrobe Specialty Steel:

http://www.latrobesteel.com

The following plant in the past was able to make what you are requesting:

H.C. Starck Inc.
21801 Tungsten Rd.
Euclid, OH 44117-1117/USA
Tel.: +1 (216) 692-3990
Fax: +1 (216) 692-0031


Regards,

Cory

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[rosiegirl]

Hello it is RosieGirl and i now understand what each of you stated regarding trying to machine MP35N. We can not hold tolerances and now I am looking for another stainless product that has the hardness and strength of MP35N but more readily available.

Any help???

 

[CoryPad]

Carpenter Custom 465

Carpenter/Questek Ferrium S53

One of ATI Allvac's VascoMax alloys

Regards,

Cory

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[TVP]

You have very few options. Maraging steels can be heat treated to very high strength in the range > 250 ksi. Cartech calls their maraging steel NiMark 250. Cartech's proprietary Aeromet 100 and Aermet 310 can also be heat treated to a similar strength range. Neither of these grades possess the corrosion resistance of MP35N, so you will need to take this into consideration. There are some very high strength age hardening stainless steels as well, like Custom Age 465 and 475 from Cartech.

 

[rosiegirl]

Thank you for the valuable information. One thing I failed to mention was the material needs to be in a sheet or plate.

If I am unable to change from MP35N, can anyone let me know what the co-efficient of friction is at -54C?

And after we Wire EDM'd the part, we form it a H/T fixture. Is this a correct process? Our cert from carpenter states AMS 5844 is solution annealed and worked hardened.
This failure is killing me... I am attaching a picture of what our end item is.

Rosiegirl

 

[TVP]

Rosie,

The coefficient of friction for MP35N against what? Is there any type of lubrication?

In your last message you wrote "we form it a H/T fixture." Can you clarify what you mean by this? Is the part being heated? Are you in close contact with Cartech? If not, you really need to be. They will have metallurgists that can help you with these challenges of obtaining high strength in the appropriate product form and suggest processing options on how to achieve the desired part shape.

 

[rosiegirl]

Thank you for your information. There is no lubricant involved. The part is edm'd and heat treated to form the radi on each end.

We have contacted Carpernter and have not received any response.

Thanks again

 

[mfgenggear]

Rose

http://www.sme.org/cgi-bin/getgmnpage.pl?/html/METV.htm&&&SME&

Check out the link above

It’s a video by SAE hydro forming & tube bending

However the process is very similar to what you are
Trying to accomplish.

MfgGearEng

 

[unclesyd]

You might want to look at MP159. Our people say that it works better than MP35N. You also might find some information using "Multiphase ". This was the original name.

http://www.spstech.com/aero/prod_lit/superalloy_brochure.pdf

http://www.latrobesteel.com/assets/documents/Sheets/Multiphase/MP159.pdf

Possible suppliers.

http://www.americaninternationalmetals.com/ni

ckel.html

http://www.metalspecialty.com/index.html

 

[Helicopterjunky]

All I know about MP159 is that it has higher alloying to allow strain hardening of larger product sizes, greater than several inches. Both of the Multiphase alloys require strain hardening, usually at the mill, to achieve their maximum strength level.