Multifunction Feeder protection relay - REF 54x

[HiSet]

Dear readers,
In one of the earlier threads some of you wrote that you folks experienced problems with ABB make REFxxx relays. We in Gulf are planning to replace our 11kV and 33 kV feeder protection with REF 541 relays. I request to guys (specially fb 599) to please narrate your experience regarding issues with this complex relay.
Shukran

 

[sengn]

Well, one thing is sure, if the technical manuals for a relay, any relay, has hundreds of pages, it must be too complicated for a normal user

 

[s98044]

Will the REF54x be used as a stand-alone or as a part of the system?

The reason I'm asking is, that the terminal is not designed to be used as a stand alone. We have noticed that the terminal is not good as a stand alone. Here's is a couple of reasons:
- the internal clock is very inaccurate
- all the parameters and settings will loose their values in case of aux supply is disconnected
- In case of fault, it is very difficult to see what happened: each protection function has its own registers, so you have go through them all, event list is not in time order, the protection functions are not listed with IEC symbol nor ANSI codes, only ABB abbr. are used


Unfortunately, we have also noticed that sometimes the protection functions do not fulfil the specifications.

Are you using communication? If so, the protocols in REFs are very limited.

There are relays on the market, that do not require extensive training to be enable to operate the relay. REF541 is not one of them.

Well, here's just few comments for you. I hope you'll find a better relay/terminal for the job.

 

[HiSet]

Thanks guys for your input. We are planning to use REF terminal connected via LON bus to MicroScada system. What's the issue with internal clock? I have heard that one cannot download configuration files from the relay to PC ??

 

[johnspark]

Hello Hiset, if you intend pursuing this REF relay, please check the following:
ask to see a COMPLETE manual that you would need for this relay. Ask yourself a question you might want an answer for and try and find it in the manual.
ask if you buy a relay with half the options and you want to add another one, if you can do that at a later date
ask for separate price for LON bus system with RER111 19 inch rack box. I think it is a star coupler.
ask what happens if you want to put new settings into relay, will old records still be saved
ask whether you can have two different versions of REF software on the same computer
ask what the licence price is for software for setting, for downloading event and disturbance records, and whether you can use the same software for other relays by the same manufacturer.
Ask if it can be connected to DNP3.0 in the future, because the SCADA boys might be delighted if you can get that. Also ask if the relays you buy today can be upgraded to work with UCA2.0 (or the new equivalent number) in the future.

Hope that helps.

Of course these are the same type of questions you would ask for all other relays.

 

[tomatge]

HiSet,

Our company operates REF (and other REx series relays) connected to MicroSCADA using LON. In answer to particular issues raised, the relays can be time synchronised via the MicroSCADA, so the accuracy of the relay clock should not be an issue. It is possible to obtain large quantities of information from the relays, usually loads of data that is pretty much irrelevent, and potentially very confusing.

The particular problems that we have experienced, and I know other utilities have also, is that the REF relays seem prone to "locking up". They simply stop working. The front panel keyboard does not work, the LCD screen goes blank. One could reasonably assume that the relay will not actually operate correctly if there was a fault. However, the LON communciations merrily carries on (presumably the LON interface runs on a coprocessor as a separate task). Obviously no values update, but the SCADA has absolutely no idea that the relay is not working. This, in some circles, may be considered a problem !!!

Resetting (power cycling) the relay sometimes helps. It sometimes does not. On ocassions, you may be faced with having to replace the relay.

Last I heard, the relay manufacturer was looking for a firmware upgrade to fix the problems. Maybe you should ask them where they are at with that.

 

[s98044]

HiSet,

I mentioned earlier the inaccurate internal clock. However, as I said, that is only a problem, if you use the terminal stand-alone; with MicroSCADA and LON, you'll have time synchronization, so this is not an issue in your case.

About the configuration upload. Nowadays, it is possible to upload the configuration from REF to PC, but you cannot be sure that the configuration is the correct one. Thus, the configuration file is only zip file that can be downloaded to relay separately. The actual code is different from that. Furthermore, the zip file (or ar-file) includes the settings that most probably are not up-to-date. Therefore, you must always have the configurations stored on PC. I know that there are many utilities that hate this feature.

You could try to find relays that include all the data inside themselves.