NCEES record system 2

[TehMightyEngineer]

This will be a long post, tl;dr: if you had an NCEES record and want to use it to quickly apply to a state then good luck getting it updated quickly. For those who don't have a record yet but want one just know that the new system is fairly improved over the old one.

A little less than a year ago I decided to get an NCEES record as my old boss and a few of my references took a long time to get me references for my original PE license. I had a number of New England states I'd be working in so figured I'd get a bunch of licenses using the NCEES record and save the time of waiting for my references, transcript, and so on to be collected and submitted. Essentially NCEES records promised ease of application and expediency. For others I understand it's also used to keep records of employment, experience, and references from many years ago as well. In short, it's one big selling point is they keep your records for you so you don't have to worry if you suddenly need a quick license in a new state.

Well, about two months ago I decided to apply to a state that thankfully I have no pressing need to work in yet but wanted to get out of the way. I was getting ready to transmit my NCEES record (which was less than a year old) and got an email that said this (copied 100% from the email, not paraphrased):

The NCEES Records Program will be unavailable June 11–19 for system enhancements. You will not be able to access your account during this time. As a reminder, all upcoming transmittal requests must be submitted no later than June 10.

Thank you for your patience as we work to bring you a new and improved system.

When I went to my records page I saw this:

So, system enhancements, huh? Sounds good right, I'm not concerned as it clearly states "Transmittal requests can be submitted through the new system after June 20th". This, to me, says that the records are all 100% fine and they're just updating the interface, software, or other systems for the records program. Good, it needed it. I entirely did not expect that I would be unable to send a record until I resubmitted half of my record to NCEES again.

After it came back online I got this message: "Existing Record holders and Credentials Evaluation customers need to link their legacy accounts to migrate their information into the new system." Okay, I'll do that. After that your NCEES account dashboard page will show a "purchase transmittal" button... That's it.

YOU HAVE TO PURCHASE TRANSMITTAL TO A STATE TO EVEN GET THE PROCESS STARTED! WHY NCEES?! DO YOU THINK WE LIKE JUST APPLYING TO RANDOM STATES? WHY CAN'T I SETUP MY ACCOUNT AHEAD OF TIME!?

Well, for me this doesn't matter much I'm applying to a non-critical state already so it's no bother. I purchase transmittal, painless process enough, and then it will give you a notification that your account it being transferred from the old record system. So, what the heck did linking my account do? I wait about 2 weeks or so and then get impatient and think something went wrong. I use NCEES's chat feature... WHAT!? THIS PROCESS TAKES 2-3 WEEKS TO COMPLETE!? That's the response I got from NCEES; it's up to 3 weeks to "link" your account. Maybe this will speed up over time but this is unacceptable as is; and I'm just getting started.

After my account is finally transferred I'm presented with this (only with a lot more whited out):

My personal information and education information were uploaded and correct; so that's all good. However, "exam and license verification", "work experience", "professional references", and "time gaps". Were all whited out.

The biggest is references. It took me 6 weeks to get all my references to respond. One was so busy that I kept having to rudely bug him for references (this was after getting a work experience document, and getting a reference a year ago for the original record). Two references didn't get the email, it went to their SPAM folders. One I typed in their name wrong and changing their name requires you to resend the email. Finally, one never even responded so I had to scrounge old work contacts for a reference. You know what NCEES said about this on their Facebook page to another engineer?

Jo, we understand your frustration. No one likes to have to update information that they’ve already entered, especially if it was done fairly recently.

There is a reason that we can’t simply migrate all of your information for you. References in paper form cannot be pushed through a now-electronic means of information gathering. We at NCEES cannot act as though we are the respondents. If feedback is going into your account as dated/signed/submitted by PE references, employment supervisors, or boards verifying licenses, they and only they can send it. We have reached this position in conjunction with the 70 state licensing boards of the U.S.A.

We can assure you that your part in requesting these references in the new system is minimal. Your contacts’ names are already entered. All you need to do is add their email addresses and hit send. Their part is almost as easy and can be completed in a minute or two.

As far as your "contract" with NCEES is concerned, your NCEES Record is currently active. You don’t have to make any updates or changes if you don’t want to. The only reason you need to make any updates is if you plan to apply for comity licensure. If you don’t need to transmit, then you don’t need to do anything at all.

As far as extending the time you feel you have lost, there are no renewal fees moving forward. You don’t have to pay NCEES another cent and your Record will remain active. To reiterate, the only reason you would need to update anything in your account is if you need to transmit to a new licensing board.

Once again, all of the changes in the system have been made in conjunction with the state licensing boards. The tech has changed, their needs have changed, and those changes had to be implemented at some point. Now is simply that time.

Again, we know it’s an inconvenience, but we’ve tried to make it as painless as possible.

NCEES

Here's the link to the above post: [URL unfurl="true"]https://www.facebook.com/ncees/posts/1181163571915010?comment_id=1185214024843298[/url]

Let me highlight a few things:

Their part is almost as easy and can be completed in a minute or two.

If you don’t need to transmit, then you don’t need to do anything at all.

They said essentially, if you don't need to use this service then you don't need to do anything... They literally have no idea why it would be useful to be able to set this up AHEAD of needing to apply to a state board. Plus, they have absolutely no concept of how hard it is for some engineers to gather all 5 PE references. Good luck electrical engineers, engineers just starting out who haven't networked in a professional capacity, engineers who work mostly without peer review beyond their own firm, or engineers where many reference-able people have retired or are not able to be contacted.

Plus, they're missing the ENTIRE point of the records system. Keep records so we don't have to and produce them quickly for easy application. THEY'VE FAILED AT BOTH AND DON'T EVEN SEEM TO SEE THE PROBLEM!

I'm still not done. The license verification may be painless if your state will do it for free. My home state of Maine did it within a few minutes of my request for free. I apparently only needed to verify my home state but I went to verify New Hampshire and Massachusetts as well. New Hampshire required me to send in a check or a credit card form and pay a small fee to transmit it. Mass required me to sign onto their account system, register that I had license, and then pay to have them send that license to NCEES. At least this could be done by card over the internet so was reasonably fast. Overall though it's bonkers. NCEES gave the exam to me. They required a board approve me to sit for the exam. Then they sent that passing score into the board. If that's not enough then please look on the state's PUBLIC REGISTER of engineers and find my name, address, license number, and discipline. If I somehow managed to forge all of this then do you think I'm going to even bother applying to another state when I'm some wizard computer hacker?

At least "time gaps" is easy to fill in. You have to remember when you changed jobs but mostly it's not terrible. At least you can do it yourself and not wait on anyone else.

Now, "work experience". This was the icing on the cake. So after getting ALL my references in, everything was green across the board. It finally let me "review" my record to check for errors. I then click "submit"! A chorus of angels sing out and doves fly into the air. ONLY TO BE SHOT DOWN BY A TEAM OF NCEES MEMBERS WITH SHOTGUNS! MY WORK EXPERIENCE SECTION IS WHITED OUT AGAIN!!!! I click on it and it says MY WORK HISTORY IS PENDING A REVIEW BY NCEES BEFORE TRANSMITTAL!?! WHY FOR THE LOVE OF TOAST COULDN'T YOU HAVE DONE THAT EARLIER!? WHY?!!?!!?! Then, after NCEES "reviews" it, my current boss had to review it as well and agree to it! Thankfully I could bang on my bosses door pleading for him to check his email but it was just so completely bonkers that this couldn't have been done earlier.

After all of that; I finally submitted my license. It actually took so long that the state rejected my application stating that they never received the NCEES record. I sent an explanation letter but if this causes an issue I'm going to blow a gasket.

NCEES also has pretty much lied about this update. They stated multiple times on their facebook page that they sent out "multiple" emails warning about this. I still have my SINGLE email, which I posted above, and it does not imply anything that actually is involved. Further, saying that they can't copy references is bullshit as they copied my work experience and that was a paper form signed by my previous boss. To me work experience is more critical to be signed and verified in terms of getting licensed than references. Plenty of shitty engineers get references; but experience is much more verifiable. Best guess, I would think that the real reason is they don't want to put forward the manpower to hand-transfer all those records to their new digital system.

We had a big topic on engineerboards.com about this. One person was worried this might cost him a job offer. Another on the NCEES facebook page implied that this cost their company hundreds of hours for all their engineers to take the time to redo their records. The fix is stupidly easy, too. Let us submit our archaic "analog" records while we "link" our accounts and setup our digital records. Or, hell, even just letting us get it setup without having to transmit to a state! The worst though is their refusal by NCEES to admit the issues exist and that we have a valid complaint. Even if they just said "we're sorry but it's done now" would be better than rubbing the salt into the wound and stating everything is fine and "it only takes a few minutes".

When I get a minute I'm emailing my state board about this debacle. NCEES is currently holding a meeting so hopefully someone can talk some sense into them. I refuse to believe that an organization run by engineers would think this system was acceptable.

The only good news is, once setup, the new records system is better than the old one and doesn't have a yearly fee. The continuing education tracker is somewhat nice, too.

P.S. When you finally submit it you get the message "Initial transmittal in progress, additional transmittals available after initial is completed." I love how even when you're "done" you still have to wait for some unknown reason.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH, MA)
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[JedClampett]

As soon as I first saw this I was suspicious. Thank you for reinforcing my suspicions.
It's like, "we're from the government and here to help." joke. We're going to improve the system and it will be free and better and no extra work for you.

 

[zdas04]

I've had a NEECS record for 13 years, work has slowed down so much and so few people in my industry care about registration at all, I had almost decided not to review my NEECS record. Now I'm simply done with them. I haven't gotten any correspondence from them since my last (ever I guess) renewal, sure didn't get notified of the system change.

[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

I've had a NEECS record for 13 years, work has slowed down so much and so few people in my industry care about registration at all, I had almost decided not to review my NEECS record. Now I'm simply done with them. I haven't gotten any correspondence from them since my last (ever I guess) renewal, sure didn't get notified of the system change.

Gotta love what 13 years of being a customer gets you.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH, MA)
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[hawkaz]

What fun. They "lost" the information from when I took the test in 1996. Had to jump through some hoops for a couple states.
Interesting phone calls from the states though. Went something like - "I see that you are registered in 10 states, but don't see any evidence that you took the test"

 

[bones206]

After reading this post, I logged on to NCEES and sure enough I had to link my "legacy account". I brought it to my colleagues' attention and can confirm that none of us had received a single email from NCEES about this and were totally blindsided. My boss just forwarded my email on this topic to several dozen engineers company-wide to make them aware of the issue.

I had just set my NCEES record up this spring and it was a 7 week process. I'm cringing at the thought of having to revisit it again. The fact that you have to now purchase a transmittal in order to begin their "upgrade" process is ethically and perhaps legally questionable, in my opinion.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Wow, I thought at least most people would have been somewhat aware of this. I'm very glad I made this post now.

If you're like me and think this is unacceptable then I'd suggest emailing your state engineering board. A number of people I talked to have tried contacting anyone higher up than the NCEES facebook page but have gotten nowhere. I suspect the state boards will be about the only people NCEES will listen to at this point.

Though, if you want to add you voice to NCEES's Facebook page there are a number of people who have left a review there. [URL unfurl="true"]https://www.facebook.com/ncees/?fref=nf[/url]

bones: I agree, my records account was 10 months old when this happened. I'm sure the people I asked for references are a little tired of my emails right now.

Interesting you mention legally questionable, someone else was even thinking of taking this so far as a lawsuit. I have no idea if that would be a good idea or even possible.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH, MA)
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[Rabbit12]

Holy F! What a cluster f*#@. I just logged in and it appears I have the same problems. So before I can even so how f'd up my record is I have to purchase a transmittal? That is complete BS. If I have to re-do a bunch of crap I'm not going to buy a damn transmittal from them.

 

[kipfoot]

TME - thank you for posting this and commenting on the other thread about the NCEES records disaster. I wouldn't have known otherwise. What always baffles me is not that there was a dumb idea, but rather that it had to have been discussed by a bunch of people and approved.

"So, we're going to discard all the earlier records and not tell anybody until they come looking for their them. That sounds good, let's implement that plan!"

You would think that it would have been pretty simple to send an email at the beginning of the year that said, "we're trashing everybody's record in June. If you need to apply for comity in another state, do it before then or you'll have to retype everything."

They could have even raised the fee to send information. Like, if you haven't retyped all your record, it'll cost you $500 for us to send it to another state.

just amazingly bad. wow.

 

[JedClampett]

They did mention it in March, but what they said was suspiciously vague. See my attached snip.
It never hinted that they were going to blow up the old system (which by the way, you have to pay for upkeep) and replace it with something else. And you were eventually going have to have to update all your information that was such a pain in the rump to get in the first place.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Jed: Good info, I had not seen that one. Maybe this is the "multiple" email NCEES has been talking about. Regardless of how many they sent they were exceedingly unclear on what was involved. Everything I've seen has been vague and almost implying the opposite, that the records will be available fully after their update.

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH, MA)
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[kipfoot]

TME - when NCEES said multiple emails, it seems they meant that they sent one email to multiple people. I received no such thing.

 

[Rabbit12]

I also didn't receive that email JedClampett.

I honestly think a refund is in order. When we last renewed our records we basically paid for a year of access to our record. That's not what we were provided.

Just emailed a colleague about this and he actually had the NCEES people hang up on him as he was explaining how requiring us to purchase a transmittal doesn't work well because we can't control the rate they get info from numerous sources (references, state boards, transcripts, etc.). So so so dumb.

 

[JedClampett]

If it makes y'all feel any better I got the Email, but now I can't get into the "My NCEES" system. And when I try to get password help, it says no credentials with that ID.
So I have a phone call to NCEES in my future.

 

[flight7]

My NCEES record renewal date would have been in June this year, so I jumped into this mess in July under the belief that I needed to do so to "renew". The process took at least 6 hours. The last time I used my record to obtain comity was a decade ago, when my record was still brand new. If these new requirements are truly required, such as five new references every 12 months, I don't know how my old analog record containing only one reference per year would have been accepted by any state. (Conversely, if my record was complete in 2015, why do I need so many new references now? Why can't the scans of old forms stand in place of new emails? I doubt I'll ever get an answer to that.)

Anyway, I have some old experience that was not engineering related, and also some engineering experience where I haven't been able to track anyone down to re-verify it. So I'm using the "self-verified" option, and hoping that the many years in my current job will be sufficient to obtain comity in the future. I'm basically throwing away my older engineering experience and putting it in the non-engineering category. I suppose I'll find out how this plan works whenever I try to get comity somewhere. If it doesn't work, I'll be up a creek.

Unfortunately NCEES works for the state boards, not for the engineers and surveyors. I don't see how they have any accountability to us.

 

[kipfoot]

Conversely, if my record was complete in 2015, why do I need so many new references now?

My email suggestion to the Director of Member Services was that NCEES should verify data that the record holders input. If you show experience, then they should be able to affirm that it is the same experience that was verified on your paper record. check!

The reason I set up the record in the first place, of course, was because I knew that the people would not be available later. After working on my own for over a decade, I don't have a team of engineers that can verify my current work.

Oh well. I suppose I will continue on and hopefully not miss an opportunity in another state because of the difficulty getting licensed.

 

[JAE]

I just filled out part of my record of experience to rebuild my file.
I chuckled to myself as I hit "SEND" to send my record for verification from a firm I haven't worked at since 1981.
I know one of the engineers there currently but he wasn't there when I was - came way later.
No one else in that firm today was there when I was so I'm sure they will be puzzled at trying to verify my work experience that I listed from way back in time.

We'll see what happens!

Check out Eng-Tips Forum's Policies here:
faq731-376

 

[PengStruct]

Thank you for posting this, I'm in shock after all the work and fees involved in establishing my record last year I cannot believe they are doing this! I just checked and sure enough, before I can even see how much of my information they have lost they are requiring me to pay for a transmission! This is criminal..

 

[lacajun]

I am in the midst of setting up my records there. My self-verified work history leads to a page that requires a purchase of a transmittal, which was confusing. The chat person said a transmittal only needs to be purchased, when sending out records, and that's when the self-verified work history will be added and sent.

Someone contacted me with instructions to provide a lot more detail on my work experience and used structural references as an explanation. That leads me to believe a structural engineer was telling me what to add. My thought, an engineer experienced in my area wouldn't need such detail. My state applications, of which I have copies, don't have that level of detail. I had to conclude they're trying to be extra careful to avoid future problems, which may not be such a bad behavior given today's culture.

I just logged into FB and didn't see the complaints on their wall. Maybe I didn't scroll down enough.

Years ago some companies, like Hershey of Kisses fame, got into trouble upgrading their systems to SAP. They were not alone in their problems. As I recall, the biggest problems arose because no employees of Hershey's, or the others, were providing guidance to SAP or closely working with SAP to ensure they were getting a good and right for them system. They requested a system upgrade and provided nothing to SAP for guidance. At least, that's what I was reading in the WSJ years ago. No project will succeed that kind of hands off approach. It may be that NCEES didn't have enough resources to fully approach this roll over, which must have been somewhat complex in nature. It may be, too, that they didn't adequately fund the upgrade. It may be a combination of those and others aspects we're not privy to.

You certainly make me think about how much time to expend on the effort.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

I just logged into FB and didn't see the complaints on their wall. Maybe I didn't scroll down enough.

Go to their facebook page and click on "reviews" and/or "visitor posts".

Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH, MA)
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com