New Job at Structural Company 5

[erik1938]

I recently graduated with a BS in civil eng, and I have had internships with 2 structural companies. I recently moved to another state and I applied at and was hired at a small structural engineering firm. I was told that i would be doing more then just calculations and engineering, which was fine with me at the time.

Now it is about 3 weeks into the job and all I have been doing is drafting on autocad, and typing memos and emails for the SE, since he is older and not computer savy. I want more structural jobs, and I am not sure if he will provide the help necessary for me to learn.

Any comments would be appreciated, since another viewpoint is always good to see things from.

 

[livingston]

You've just graduated and you have only been there a few weeks. Your previous work has little bearing at this point on how they see you. It is really really really early to be concerned. Pay attention to what he is giving you. There may be more there than meets the eye.

 

[ctopher]

I agree. Sometimes you need to learn the basic everyday stuff of the company to move on.
If I were you, I would ask him for what you want.
Good luck.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

 

[UcfSE]

You have to pay your dues just like anywhere else. You don't really expect to be 3 weeks out of school with a BS and start designing buildings right away do you? That's unreasonable. A short period of time doing the work you're doing would be 6 months. In some companies it is longer. At this point you don't even know what you don't know. The first thing to do is start identifying engineering that you don't know how to do and go home and learn it. Spending 3-4 hours a night 5 nights a week will get you on the road very well.

You also need to learn how to put together plans. All the engineering in the world doesn't matter if your plans are horrible and/or incomplete. You need to start reading the building code you're under most often as well. Look for wind loads, snow loads, seismic loads, live loads, deflection limits and read all of the chapters on different materials. When you're done with that, start requesting going through manufacturer's catalogs. You're looking for screws, expansion bolts, epoxy anchors, powder-driven fasteners and Simpson straps, to name a few. How familiar are you with your steel, concrete, masonry and wood codes? It's time to take those home and read them through as well. You'll need to read all of the local model building code modifications to these national standards as well. How well can you calculate wind loads?

You have a lot of work ahead of you. Don't be too anxious to jump off the deep end before you know how to swim, or even which way is up.

Where are you located by the way? How well do you know all of this already? Do you practice at home, say beam design? Do you practice making spreadsheets and/or Mathcad sheets?

 

[erik1938]

In my previous internships I have calculated wind, E-quake loads, DL & LL and then designed wood framing systems for these loads, and then submited them to the SE for his corrections. Looking through books of anchors and Simpson connectors will do me no good unless I have a specific job or task in mind. That is straight memorization, which is besides the point because I already am familiar with simpson anchors and connectors, as well as a few other pre-manufactured truss companies.

I know some IBC and UBC, and I am familiar with ACI code as well.

I am not asking to start at the top, all I want is to do more structural calculations and learn. I know how plans are put together and all that.

It sounds to me like there are a lot of old timers on this forum who are stuck in the old way of doing things....you know the old when I was a kid I had to .......

 

[buzzp]

I am different than most but I can tell you it is a little early to be concerned, although not that far behind. Three weeks is to early to determine much. However, I have always believed in giving some meaningful work to any new engineer, new grad or not, as soon as they are hired. The difficulty of the work determines if a senior or junior gets it. Of course, you should be getting the less difficult work - it appears you are but not real meaningful. It could be that they are slow or perhaps they have not had the time to get you in on something they wanted too. Small companies operate a lot different than larger ones. They can provide large rewards though. Not only monetary but experience at many different levels of the engineering cycle that you would not even see at a larger company.
I don't think you need to go study every night, thats what you have doing for four years. Its time to get on a project. This always helps the learning process not only from real world experience but from code perspectives. Code is inherently boring so your not going to remember much until you actually have something your working on to consider. Then things mentioned in the code start to make more sense. Reading code without a project is time not well spent, in my opinion, and yes electricals have as much code to deal with as the next discipline.
I would go ask for some other work in addition to what you have been doing (dont let them get a wrong idea that you think your to good to run CAD or type a letter as this is just as important as engineering in a small company). Ask him to look at some of his calculations and such if he can't offer any small projects for you. Keep your eyes and ears open for work you could jump on (without asking) and just do it (don't jeopardize the company by doing it but you know what I mean). Give it a while, if things dont improve in 6 months or so then look elsewhere. I prefer to work at smaller companies because you get to wear different hats, you build closer friendships, and your ability to affect the companies bottom line is much more pronounced (and usually your wages as a result).
Good luck and hang in there for a while.

 

[kchayfie]

After 3 weeks you should be confident about where the toilets are and how the coffee machine works but everything else, including what work is being done in the office, is probably still in the realm of things you've got an idea about but don't know yet. It might be that there isn't actually a project at a suitable point for you to be getting into at the moment and so they are giving you time to settle in and get comfortable before the next big job kicks off next month or whatever. It might be that they are expecting you to learn something from the drafting that you're doing so that you're more clued up about how&what they do when the next project comes in.

Which would you rather be doing - useful work that helps and furthers a project albeit only on Autocad or typing, or unnecessary calculations for something that is never going to be built but hey, its more challenging work and you're learning something?

I suggest that for the next couple of weeks you keep your mouth shut and your eyes and ears open and find out as much as you can about whats being done in the office at the moment and what work is likely to need doing soon. Then you can approach your boss with an offer to help or a request that you get involved with project X and see where that gets you.

No one likes the arrogant graduates who come in thinking that they know everything because they've just spent however many years in school learning it. Most of those old timers have spent the same number of years in school learning the same things and then a lifetime in the business learning a whole lot more. And I'm saying that as someone who's only been doing this for 5 years so I'm not quite an old timer myself.

 

[erik1938]

Thanks to the people that have provided helpfull comments, but they I am a little amazed at some of the comments made by others.

Here are a few:

1) From Livingston

"Your previous work has little bearing at this point on how they see you" What I thought that is what a resume was for. If I have misread this please explain.

2) Some of the best from UcfSE.

"Spending 3-4 hours a night 5 nights a week will get you on the road very well." Another "going through manufacturer's catalogs. You're looking for screws, expansion bolts, epoxy anchors, powder-driven fasteners and Simpson straps, to name a few. How familiar are you with your steel, concrete, masonry and wood codes? It's time to take those home and read them through as well."

Sorry but spending 3-4 hrs a night reading Simpson catalogs as well as and code, would be just like spinning my tires if I was stuck in the mud. If I have nothing to connect it with, it is just pure memorization. I know this because I spend a month doing this at my 1st internship and it did not help that much.

Then there is kchayfie

"After 3 weeks you should be confident about where the toilets are and how the coffee machine works but everything else, including what work is being done in the office, is probably still in the realm of things you've got an idea about but don't know yet."

This seems pretty hatefull. I am not an arrogent graduate, I realize that I have years of material to learn but come on, ohhh I just realized that the coffee maker is next to the refrigerator, come on.

Thanks to buzzp and a few others that gave meaningfull comments.

 

[whyun]

Be concerned if after a few months, the company hasn't given you any design work. Companies typically have about three month probation period to observe a new employee. I would say give your company a chance for about three months to determine if it is the right one for you.

New engineers have to learn all the "tricks-of-the-trade" like knowing which is the correct way to roll a set of drawings and why. It also takes considerable amount of time to learn your company standards such as default sheet numbering scheme, sequence and layout of detail numbers. Further down the road, you will get a chance to review documents prepared by other firms that may have standards different from your firm (which are still correct, just a matter of preferences) and will be able to determine which is better and why.

You will find over the years that there are many tasks that are not "engineering" or performing analysis but are still considered "work".

 

[Zapster]

erik1938 (Structural), I am not an arrogant graduate.

Wrong, you are arrogant and immature. Why would you say, "Any comments would be appreciated, since another viewpoint is always good to see things from" and then condemn the replies you do not like. Have you already forgotten what you requested in your original post?

 

[livingston]

I hate to break it to you but your resume is an introduction not really anything else. Have you ever heard of a "paper tiger"? It's someone that looks good on paper but in reality they are fairly useless. Reality check: they hired you because they thought they could train you to be what they want you to be not for what you are. If thought you were beyond training, you would not be there.

 

[buzzp]

I would say that some of the posts are rather harsh. I did not read arrogance into your original post.
This is the problem with forums like this (any written material for that matter) is people often form varied opinions as to the mentality of the poster based on what you wrote. This is human nature. I personally, did not think you were being arrogant. Thats why writing clearly (and often lengthy) posts is sometimes required to send out the right message. Not to say yours should of been longer. It was fine.
However, your old timer comment probably started some fire. A justified comment? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. Some of the advise was excellent but some was way out there. Anyway, hang on and approach them for additional work. Or just jump in and do it - companies appreciate someone who takes initiative. Just don't screw something up where it costs the company money or loses them a client.

 

[wes616]

Old farts...HA... buzzp, you are right, that it may have pissed people off...

Erik - here is my advice for you... enjoy the process. Don't rush it. You have a lifetime ahead of you to put peoples lives in danger...

You will need to prove youself a little bit to your new boss, before he gives you any real work anyway... this is true for an engineer with no experience or with 25 years experience. ALWAYS (with very few exceptions) when you start a new job... expect some $hit work!

An internship does not an engineer make. If you can't recognise the importance of the advice that Livingston, UcfSE and kchayfie have give you, as good advice, then maybe you are in the wrong business. Try Enron, or worldcom... I hear they are hiring CEO's!



Wes C.
------------------------------
When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions...

 

[wes616]

thread731-99002

Wes C.
------------------------------
When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions...

 

[bushel3]

I recently graduated myself and got a job at a small soils testing firm. I spent six months doing lab testing, on a drill rig and doing non-math related stuff. About six months into the job I got a chance to work on a report. I did well with that task and I continued to get to write reports. I wrote "easy" reports for about 3 months, until there was a big job and I was given the oppertunity to help out with it. I ended up doing better at that job than others who had been w/ the company for years. Now, 2.5 years after I started I get to write all sorts of interesting reports. It is a blast. The field time has provided many insights into the reports that I'm now asked to write.

My advice is two fold.

1) Attitude is everything. Work hard, have fun, don't complain and be ready to step up when you get the chance. You're more likely to get your chance if everyone likes working with you on the non-design things you do now.

2) Learn as much as possible. My boss gives me all sorts of text books to read. I can't read them all, but I try and spend a little time each week reading even if I don't have a specific project to work on.

Good luck

 

[UcfSE]

If you can't do anything but reply with snide comments, I suggest you leave the forum.

Studying catalogs every night is insane. You must be pretty arrogant to think that you don't need to go study anything at home though, or put much effort into it. You say you know some codes, so how well?

The point is you need to be willing to learn. If you think you should be designing buildings at three weeks out from a BS you're probably wrong. You don't learn everything you need to know as an undergraduate, just enough to get you in trouble. Any idiot can plug numbers in to equations and pretend to do something. An engineer needs to understand what is going on, and it needs to be well enough that you can do the calculations correctly in a reasonable amount of time.

You want to do structural calculations and learn, and I told you to do them at home. You don't have to wait until your boss hands it to you to assume it's something you need and then go learn from there. He'll have to wait a while to get the design back. If you go home and learn something, your boss will be more likely to give you work pertaining to it and will be glad to see you take the initiative on your own.

Save the lame old-timers whining for some where else. I'm likely not much older than you are. Next time you post you need to be polite. I am not trying to bash you, but I shouldn't have to sugar-coat things either.

 

[RDK]

Any ex-Boy Scouts out there?

Lord Baden Powell the founder of the scouting movement was at one time the youngest Brigadier General in the British Army. He was so young that it was not long before it was discovered that he did not meet the minimum age standard that the Army had for that rank.

He was of course demoted to Colonel.

He was asked if he was disappointed by the demotion (remember he was the Hero of Mafking by this time and a popular figure in the British press of the day.)

His reply was that he had enjoyed the work of a Colonel and would enjoy the work of a Colonel once again. He went on to day that whatever rank he had held whatever duties he was given all he ever tried to do was his best and to get enjoyment out of the effort. The promotions and accolades were secondary to him after the enjoyment of doing the task of the day to the highest possible standard that he could do.

I try to follow this advice. I am one of the old farts who graduated 29 years ago. Since I run my own small business I am often called upon to do tasks that in a larger business would be given to a very junior person. Field survey and layouts, typing my own memo’s and letters, AutoCAD etc.

Even when I have been working for larger firms with full staff working with me I find that sometimes the best thing for the project is that I do some grunt work like being the rod man on a survey party.( A PhD in geotechnical engineering and I once used a chain and hand level to lay out an excavation because the normal survey party was employed elsewhere, we laughed about the many years of education necessary for the task.)

In any case I try to do the best that I can at the task at hand and get enjoyment out of a finely drafted memo or well laid out site.

Do your best at the tasks at hand and the recognition and promotion will come along un due course. If you are seen as someone with a bad attitude about being given low level work, you will not be seen as someone who can be trusted at a higher level task.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[nadam35]

RDK- great post, if more of us took your approach, the workplace would be a BETTER place...

 

[JStephen]

Erik, have you tried talking to your boss(es) to, first off, let them know that you're looking for more, and secondly, to find out what they have in mind?

At my last job, we hired some AutoCAD draftsmen for around $8 an hour. These were people fresh out of junior college type drafting programs. We could have hired them to type for that amount, as well. I assume they are paying you a good bit more than $8 an hour, which means they probably do have more in mind for you than AutoCAD or secretarial work. (I don't know how much AutoCAD you know, but I've been using it every day for maybe 5 years and am still learning on it- so don't assume that doing it is time wasted, if your job will EVER involve using it).

I was once in a position where one of the draftsmen working under me got his civil engineering degree. Great. Except the work we were doing was the same we'd always been doing, we didn't suddenly have double the engineering work and half the drafting work. That made for an awkward situation, and may be similar to what you are facing. I think the best approach there is a straightforward one, tell them you are interested in engineering, and in growing professionally, and try to work out how to make that happen.

By any chance, the older engineer in question isn't a couple of years from retirement, is he?

 

[SlideRuleEra]

Erik - One advantage of being an "old timer" is having lived "The Big Picture", not just talked about it. So in that light, please allow me to comment...

What are you doing for yourself (things that are under your control)?

1. Have you joined (and participate in) local branches of professional organizations, such as ASCE or SEA?
This may not seem important, and it may never be. However we don't know where casual acquaintances or random knowledge will lead (over the course of years).

2. Have you passed the Fundamentals Exam (EIT)?
Obtaining PE License requires more than passing the written exams, you have got to be able to DOCUMENT your work experience. You may not like your current duties, but you are sure in a good position to document them - if you are going to work there, might as well be getting "time credit" towards the a PE.

3. I agree with you about there being no need to arbitrarily "learn" various Codes (without a specific project in mind - an exception would be preparing for the Principles & Practice Exam, where knowledge of the Codes is valuable). In a few years, the content of the current Codes will have changed so much that what you "learned" has limited value. However, as discussed by others, the fundamental principles behind Codes is a different matter. There is probably some specific area of Engineering that you find so interesting that you would like to learn more about it, JUST for self-satisfaction. I suggest that you start doing this, as time is available. Keep and open mind - nobody knows where self-study will lead, but it will probably grow and branch into many areas that are both personally and professionally rewarding.

Best Wishes

http://www.SlideRuleEra.net