New workstation recommendations 2

[Theophilus]

A client recently asked me to find a good workstation for SW on which to blow some money. I've checked all sorts of CAD reviews, but they seem either out-of-date or somewhat irrelevant (dual processors still not used by SW, right?).

So, I'd like to see what everyone has experienced.

Chip
Anyone using AMD's new 64-bit chip? If so, which one? Is it worth the money? How compatible is it with other key pieces of hardware and software? Any problems?

Graphics
We would like to purchase a graphics card that will last a few years. Any experience with some of the nice cards—-perhaps any that support real view (lots of presentation renderings with this client)?

Monitor
The old ViewSonic 21” is now dimming after six years of hard use. I would think I could get away with a good 19” flat CRT with high resolution and refresh rates over 80 Hz? Any candidates? I would consider a flat panel, but prefer the vibrancy and versatile resolution of CRTs (for now), as long as they don’t flicker.

Other
Has anyone found a great combination of these things already bundled in a robust system package that will also deal with all sorts of miscellaneous pieces of software like a workhorse?

Any feedback will be appreciated. I need to pursue a system within a week.




Jeff Mowry
Industrial Designhaus, LLC

http://www.industrialdesignhaus.com

 

[JNR]

Hmmm..... this thread is going to be fun!!! I'll start the ball rolling but where do I start?

Let's take the easy bits first.

1. First principle of buying computers (well any electronics really I suppose). Scrape together all the cash you can find for hardware and spend it all (carefully). Things move so fast and hardware becomes "slow" or obselete so quickly that the more you buy up front, the longer it with be before you have to upgrade again. And make no mistake - for any CAD or similar software application you are embarking on a constant hardware upgrade journey into the future, so budget for it!

2. Buy a Quadro graphics board. No question. SW2004 was baselined on this chipset, so cut your risks and potential problems and go with what is one of the very best and is also guaranteed to work with Realview as well as SW. If any still does not believe me read the current edition of the (sporadic) SolidWorks Express. Buy one of the higher end boards if you can afford it (See rule 1 above). But you need to balance your spending cross the system.

3. Buy a fast processor. I must admit I personally tend to stick with Intel, but I like to stay with the "standard" and for the small real differences in the end performance (real everyday use rather than techno-tests) I like to minimze my risks here too. However I don't have to make that choice these days - it's up to the IT gurus and I'm sure that AMD is very compatible and mature these days. Of course I worked for Intel many years ago too, so maybe I'm a bit sentimental. (Now wait for the comments - JNR being sentimental!!! ahh, bite me...)

4. If you are not doing FEA are similar stuff with a program that can use multi-threading, forget multiple processors. SW is essentially single threaded by nature (it's a serial solver, time dependent Parasolid database - actually one of its strengths.) The only multi threading is in the user interface and graphics. The first is virutally zero overhead and the second is all done by the graphics board these days. So your second CPU would be idle virtually all the time.

5. Get plenty of fast RAM. Depending on whatyou are going to be doing, 1.5GB minimum would be my recommendation. (Remember Rule 1 - the software and database sizes will grow to fit the average current system - much like "The more you earn the more you spend".)

6. The monitor is the least of your worries. If it flickers take it back. Definitely a big one - "20" inches (which is various described as 19/20 21 even). I agree with the CRT choice, but that is something of a personal thing. The expected life of flat panel still is much shorter than a traditional. However they are small, light and convenient. Also flat panels exhibit a phenomina that some love and some hate. It is variously called "virtual resolution" or the "screen door effect". Becuase of the crisp tight usually square pixels, many people see the "mesh" effect (I do and it bugs the unowot out of me). However to some see it as a much sharper image. I guess it depends on your eye balls and gray matter. I think that if I were buying multiple stations i would give people the choice. BTW: We use HP - very flat (only because Rockwell had a copr agreement at one time), Viewsonic - not quite as flat but nice, also inexpensive, and have used Komodo - pretty flat, nice and quite inexpensive, I have a 17" one at home.)

7. Usually bundles are a dead loss for our purposes. If you buy most of the miscellaneous software with the system it is at OEM pricing and very inexpensive anyway. Any decent supplier can do this. If they say they can't then go somewhere else. (In fact you can get OEM pricing with either a CPU or a new hard disk in many cases!!). Example, XP Pro on my home system was only $49 extra - take a look at the difference on the boxed software versions of XP.

8. What else? Well a good quality case with power suppler case should not be more than about $60 max and a mouse and keyboard about $12 to $15. (Again example, MicsoSoft OEM version mouse with wheel $5 - in the pretty box $40. You save, the treehuggers are happy and you don't have to recycle the cardboard.)

9. Have I mentioned brand names yet? Slightly. Only the graphics card no-brainer as a recommendation and a brief mention of what we are using currently for monitors and CPU that seem to work fine. Now wait the the big free for all and passionate arguements for Brand X Model Y that will fill this rest of this thread! :-o :-(



Be naughty - save Santa a trip.

 

[JNR]

Apologies for my lack of spell checking on the last post, guys and gals.

Be naughty - save Santa a trip.

 

[MadMango]

I read somewhere (can't remember now) that users should wait till after Q1 2004 to use the AMD 64-bit chipset for any hardcore applications. The article talked about some improvements and added functionality that will be added, but is not implemented at present.

I agree on the Quadro graphics card suggestion. No further comment.

Make sure you look at the FSB speed of your motherboard (800mhz min). You want one that is as fast as possible, as this is usually the bottleneck in any system nowdays. This coupled with some fast memory will probably prove for better performance gains when considering where to spend your money (as compared to getting a ~3.06ghz processor and skimping on the rest).

Aslo, look for a MB that has at least 512mb level 1 cache. This will improve data rate transfers.

You didn't mention anything about hard drives? I think there are a lot of troubles associated with SCSI drives and Raid 0. Sata drives seem be be the way to go now, but I have no direct experience with Sata drives.

Ray Reynolds
"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[Theophilus]

JNR, MadMango,

Thanks for the input. I may just build this one myself so I can specify the motherboard cache, etc along with other custom/OEM components/OS/software.

So far experience with fast ATAPI drives has been great and I don't see any reason to fork over extra dough for SCSI. Of course, things change every day in this realm.




Jeff Mowry
Industrial Designhaus, LLC

http://www.industrialdesignhaus.com

 

[NathanN]

The Athlon64s are easily the fastest processors on the market at the moment, and probably for some time to come. Not to mention the abitily to address more than 4GB of ram when Windows 64bit version arrives. If you've got the dosh, a dual Opteron setup is definitely a good choice.

For your harddrive, I recommend a Western Digital Raptor. It's 37GB, 10000 rpm, and has serial ata and a 5 year warranty. We've just got 4 computers with them, and they're very good.

 

[SBaugh]

Well Heck I might as well put my $.02 worth in here too.

1) What do you recommend as a good PC to run SolidWorks? What are good recommendations for processors, video cards, and RAM? What are the preferences between AMD and Pentiums, or in name brand machines, or building our own?

CPU - Complicated models have a tendency to take its toll on computers. Also with every major release of SW it becomes more demanding. In my opinion, you should get at least close to top of the line when it comes to CPU. That will save some money when buying the CPU. As for AMD or Intel? there is no standard type to use. I have used both and both work fine. I prefer AMD to Intel, but neither seems to be much different. Just don't get the cheaper CPU's like the Celron's, etc...

Video - The Quadro cards have been doing very well lately. I use a Quadro FX 500. With your large assembly files you would probably want to get one of the higher end cards, depending on the type of work and complexity of your work that you do. See website for a listing of Approved Video cards

http://www.solidworks.com/pages/services/VideoCardTesting.html?pid=383

If you click on tested that will show you some of the cards that failed. If you click on Certified then it will listed those cards that are certified to be used with SW. Just make sure you use the ones with the Green box. Don't get one with a yellow or red box.

RAM - Ram is important. I don't recommend anything under 1 gig anymore. If you build large complex assemblies, you would probably prefer to look at anywhere from 2-3 gigs of RAM. Be sure the RAM is all the same type and not mixed up types or manufacturer boards.

Hard drive - HDD is important as well. You should look at getting an Ultra ATA 100 that supports the HDD. Those run a little faster with the Ultra ATA. Also look at getting one that has the faster RPM. I believe Seagate makes a 10,000-RPM HDD now.

I prefer Dell workstations. I have 2 here and they run great. I also have a computer that is not a brand name but was bought over the web and it runs great as well. If you build it yourself and have any problems you will have to look at the manufacturers for the warranty. Were as if you bought it through Dell you would rely on them for the warranty. It varies and is pretty much up to you and where you want to get, make or buy a computer. But there is no specific computer or standard computer that SW recommends.

Software makes a big difference too. Use either Windows XP Pro or Windows 2000 Pro for your OS. Make sure the users are not downloading and using lots of useless or needless programs - (Programs that might make your background image change ever few days, etc...). Basic maintenance will help keep the computers running smoother and give them more stability. Like cleaning out the TEMP files that are located under - EX: C:\Documents and Settings\Scott Baugh\Local Settings\ - defrag your HDD every once in awhile.

The whole computer needs to work well together. It's like building and engine for a car. You just don't want to put in a high duration CAM and not upgrade the rest of the motor. If you did that then the CAM wouldn't prove to be sufficient enough to pull the load and would fail in the process. So the whole computer has to be looked at, except for maybe the case. Other than making sure everything will fit inside.

SW recommendations:

http://www.solidworks.com/pages/services/Hardware.html?PID=383

2) Is there a large difference in working from the network and locally? What can be done to improve this?

Yes! Working on your local Hard drive runs a lot faster than over a network. With a network you have hubs and switches and not to mention traffic to deal with all the time. When you open a file up over a network you make temp files in the local directory of the server. SW has to communicate with those files on the server that takes time. If you upgrade your Switches, hubs and get newer servers with better speeds then you might be able to squeeze out a few more seconds, but it won't compare to opening the files locally. PDMworks would benefit you in the way of checking out files from the server and placing them on your local Hard disk. This would eliminate the need to copy files locally, open the files and put them back when finished. In that process you might screw something up. But with PDMworks you wouldn't have that problem, plus can now track those files with Revisions. The best way to test this is to find a not to complicated assembly and open it via the network, then locally and then you can see the time differences.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
3DVision Technologies

http://www.3dvisiontech.com

http://www.scottjbaugh.com

faq731-376

 

[Theophilus]

OK, here's the report. After comparing with Dell and others, along with Intel vs. AMD-based systems, I went with Xi Computer and had a non-conventional system put together. This is the fastest system I've ever seen in this sort of environment (even with Windows XP Pro--what a pig!) and so far is a pleasure to use.

Chip
AMD Opteron 144 64-bit, 1024KB Cache HyperTransport

RAM
1024MB DDR Registered ECC Interleave, 333 MHz

Graphics
nVidia Quadro FX500 128MB DDR2 AGP-8x Dual Head

HDD
Western Digital 36GB 10,000RPM SATA 150MB/s Raptor 8MB Cache

Monitor
ViewSonic 19" G90F .21hp Perfect Flat

OS
Windows XP Pro

This system screams. I have a few assemblies that serve as nice benchmarks--one of which my Sony Vaio lap top couldn't even open--that opened, then rendered very quickly. The case is a silver box with a see-through side panel. Front and side panels lock--nice. Didn't get the light-up fans.

Including shipping, the system and monitor were less than $2,500.

I was most surprised at how expensive the graphics cards are, so I decided to go with the FX500 and upgrade later, if necessary. So far the card is working fine, so I don't think I'll need to do that any time soon, and it seems to work with RealView (although I don't think RealView reads PhotoWorks properties).

Don't order just before Christmas--this took a month to arrive (ack).

To migrate from the old PC, I used PC Relocator (from AlohaBob). Many programs were able to be moved using this program, not needing to be reinstalled. I was surprised this actually worked. Data files and all moved in about 2.5 hours after being set up on each PC. Good program--~$70.

I just ordered another similar box for my own business and recommend Xi Computer. They had the lowest price/performance. I added up the components myself (retail) and didn't find the tiny savings worth my time and risk in assembling/installing everything from scratch.




Jeff Mowry
Industrial Designhaus, LLC

http://www.industrialdesignhaus.com

 

[MadMango]

Thanks for the update on this issue.

I use a Xi computer at work, dual P4 1.7ghz flavor. Besides a couple of problems with a temperature sensor, and 1 bad fan, I have had great performance from Xi Computers.

Ray Reynolds
"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[JNR]

Hey, this is a bit late but why not buy a nice cool system like described in the replies, then blow the rest of the money my way. I can easily spend it...... ;-)

I was - and he did. So at least I didn't get coal.....
OK, OK, It's a reference to my holiday sig. "Be naughty - Save Santa a trip..."

 

[Theophilus]

You should have been less naughty.

Considering the system I'm replacing--um--no way.




Jeff Mowry
Industrial Designhaus, LLC

http://www.industrialdesignhaus.com

 

[JNR]

Nah! It was much more fun than the gifts would have been ;_)

I was - and he did. So at least I didn't get coal.....
OK, OK, It's a reference to my holiday sig. "Be naughty - Save Santa a trip..."

 

[aromech]

I haven’t heard anything about the Xeon chipset on this post so I will throw in my 2 cents with out getting into too much detail, just try and refrain from giving me change guys .

Currently we have 4 Xeon workstations,

1- Dual processor (the slowest because solidworks does not use multithread, yes we bench marked it),
2- 2.88ghz, and
3- 2 3.06ghz with L3 Cach. The fastest machines)

We ran a Xeon 2.66 processor against the P4 2.6 with comparable graphics cards and found the Xeon to be quite a bit faster with less hang ups (both XP Pro with identical settings), I realize there are other factors in speed, but our Xeon machines just seem more reliable, faster, and smoother running than our P4 machines even with the slower 533 front side bus in the Xeon?.

Sorry no AMD chip sets here so I have no comparison or input (probably a good thing)

Fred

 

[cmm]

MadMango, you said:

"I think there are a lot of troubles associated with SCSI drives and Raid 0."

Does anyone know about SATA drives in RAID 0 configuration? I am about to get a workstation similar to one Theophilus describes above. Since the motherboard has on-board RAID I figured I would take advantage of it. I frequently work with large assemblies (I load lightweight sometimes, but often need to resolve all), so I want loading/saving times to be as short as possible. Is it safe to say that the hard disk is indeed the bottleneck when loading/saving large assemblies, and that RAID 0 would make loading/saving large assemblies significantly faster? I was thinking of getting two 36GB 10kRPM 8MB cache Raptor drives in RAID 0 configuration.

Chris Montgomery
Mechanical Engineer

http://www.adaptivequipment.com