Non-degree licensed engineer grief 15

[Riversidean]

Hi all,

Is it actually a thing for engineers who went to school to discriminate against licensed engineers who never went to school? I have a friend whose father never went to school, but became a licensed civil engineer. She told me that engineers who went to school would give him crap for never going to school and not trust his work until he became respected. I've also seen an incident in my workplace where a individual got a engineering license in a field he did not take in college. Is this just a jealousy thing because someone studied on their own and got the license without the schooling and money being spent? Or do people feel that being able to get a engineering license without a college education cheapens the license?

For the record I admire people who are able to get licensed if they never got that "official" education.

-Riversidean

 

[hokie66]

The part of your post that I latched onto was "not trust his work until he became respected". Whether degreed or not, I have that attitude toward everyone.

 

[IRstuff]

I think that as with any class of professionals, there are good ones and there are bad ones. Non-degreed engineers, licensed or not, are always potentially suspect; they could have been good enough to skip school, or they simply regurgitate equations that they've memorized. Or anywhere in between.

The most disturbing aspect of non-degreed engineers is whether they have, and understand, the theoretical underpinnings that are important for advanced engineering. So, until them demonstrate their thorough understanding of the equations and theories they use for design, I, too, would "trust, but verify."

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[MotorCity]

Having a license means you passed one test. Having a degree means you passed several tests.

 

[dik]

I don't put much faith in formal education... I've encountered good licensed P.Eng.s and not so good ones. I've also encountered extremely good Tech school graduates. Same with Ph.Ds... good, bad, or whatever. One of the finest world class Architects I've met was a Ryerson grad (back when it was a tech school).

It's a matter of what a person has learned and what he can do, and not so much a matter of the degree he has. As time passes, credentials are becoming more and more important and recognised... and, not necessarily the case.

Dik

 

[JedClampett]

I would tend to have more respect for a licensed engineer who never got a degree. With the State Boards being as much of a pain in the butt as they are about credentials, I can't imagine how many hoops this guy jumped through to get a license.
If you can do the job, you can do the job. Engineers who give him grief are only showing their own insecurities.

 

[dik]

Jed: couldn't have said it better...

Dik

 

[bimr]

Is it actually a thing for engineers who went to school to discriminate against licensed engineers who never went to school? I have a friend whose father never went to school, but became a licensed civil engineer. She told me......

C'mon man!

You are asking for people to comment on gossip. The information from your friend is hearsay.

Why don't you call the father and get the story from the source.

 

[JAE]

In my "many" years I've never seen issues with non-degreed engineers.

We are focused on our projects, processes, cooperation, communication, etc. and the individual's qualities and talents (or lack thereof) show in their performance, not on the paper hanging in a frame on their office wall.

That said, I have a graduate degree and know for a fact that in my case it helped me considerably to better understand structural engineering.


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[fel3]

Two of the best licensed engineers I ever worked with and learned from did not have engineering degrees. One had a bachelor's degree in Industrial Technology and the other had one or two years of junior college. Both started as civil drafters and soon discovered that they were smarter than some of the engineers they worked with. Both asked for an received the types of assignments usually given to EITs and young PEs and started learning the craft. Along they way, both took some engineering classes, but nothing approaching a full degree. Their licensure paths took 15 years each, but both passed their PE exams on the first try.

The only grief I was aware of was one of my bosses and the guy from junior college simply could not get along. As best I could tell, it was both personal and professional. They both got along with everyone else just fine.

And…one of the worst engineers I ever dealt with (part-time contract employee with a client) also did not have a degree. He had two years of junior college and later became a Licensed Surveyor. He had set up his own surveying business and wanted the ability to perform certain related engineering tasks like grading design, so he decided to get a PE. As I recall, he had to take the test 12 times before he finally passed. He seemed to do OK (maybe) with grading design, but his PE gave him license (pun intended) to do far more than he was qualified for and he started to move that direction. I lost track of him before he could get to far down the road to being outside his limited expertise, but I was worried enough to tell my boss about it, who then discussed it with our mutual client.



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"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

 

[bimr]

Non-degree licensed engineer grief

Why don't you answer your own question?

Would you go see a Doctor who has a substandard education? Have you ever heard of a Doctor who got licensed by experience?

Would you go to court with an Attorney who has a substandard education? Have you ever heard of an Attorney who got a licensed by experience?

Why would anyone try to get a license by experience?

Everyone that I have been associated with that tried to get around the system like this has not been qualified. I know several people that got technology degrees and then went to certain states where the states were not as rigorous to get licensed. Well guess what, these people were not as qualified.

Posting as an engineer with a substandard background in my opinion is a fraud, just like a quack Doctor.

My opinion is that it any more difficult to obtain an engineering degree than the other professions. If you are willing to accept an unqualified engineer, you are cheapening the profession so I will never hire one.

I am not going to give a non-degree licensed engineer grief, but I will know their limitations. What that means to a non-degree licensed engineer is that the employer will hire them for less, thus cheapening the business.

 

[msquared48]

Most of us have marriage licenses, bot were never formally educated for that in college.

We did go to the school of hard knocks though, and still are!

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[Compositepro]

"Have you ever heard of an Attorney who got a licensed by experience?"

Yes, Abraham Lincoln and Daniel Webster. And they were by no means alone in this. It used to be the primary way that one became a lawyer. Doctors, too.

From Wikipedia:
Webster was hailed as the leading constitutional scholar of his generation and probably had more influence on the powerful Marshall Court than any other advocate had.[citation needed] Of the 223 cases he argued before the Supreme Court, he won about half of them. But, even more, Webster played an important role in eight of the most celebrated constitutional cases decided by the Court between 1801 and 1824. In many of these—particularly in Dartmouth College v. Woodward (1819) and Gibbons v. Ogden (1824) – the Supreme Court handed down decisions based largely on Webster's arguments. Marshall's most famous declaration, "the power to tax is the power to destroy," in McCulloch v. Maryland (1819), was in fact lifted from Webster's presentation against the state of Maryland: "An unlimited power to tax involves, necessarily, a power to destroy; because there is a limit beyond which no institution and no property can bear taxation." Marshall patterned some of his Court decisions after Webster's briefs, and Webster played a crucial role in helping many of the justices interpret matters of constitutional law. As a result, many people began calling him the Great Expounder of the Constitution.[22]

 

[bimr]

"Have you ever heard of an Attorney who got a licensed by experience?"

Yes, Abraham Lincoln and Daniel Webster. And they were by no means alone in this. It used to be the primary way that one became a lawyer. Doctors, too.

Public high schools had not been invented 200 years and there was maybe 30 colleges in the United States so it would have been difficult to go to law school at that time. However, I stand corrected as it is possible to take the bar exam after being "home schooled "by a licensed attorney. Law office study remains very rare. Law office readers comprised only 60 of the 83,986 people who took state and multi-state bar exams in 2013. They are also less likely to pass those exams. Only 28 percent of the tiny minority of law office readers passed their bar exams last year, compared to 78 percent of students who attended American Bar Association-approved law schools.

However, it is not possible to obtain a medical license without going to medical school.

The gist of the argument remains, a non-degree licensed engineer will be worth less and will be paid less by an employer, thus cheapening the profession.

 

[Compositepro]

"thus cheapening the profession". So, as always, the true reason for licensing becomes keeping out outsiders who compete with insiders and lower prices. It is not for public safety.

 

[JAE]

At least in the multiple states I'm licensed in there is no longer a licensure-by-experience path.

There used to be but now, I think, most US states require an ABET accredited degree and/or a non-accredited degree review process.

So the question about non-degree'd persons in the US may be slowly disappearing...at least in the disciplines that normally require a license to practice (i.e. non-industrial engineers).

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[bimr]

becomes keeping out outsiders who compete with insiders and lower prices[/quote

There is no restraint on competition. Everyone has an opportunity to obtain an education and then obtain a license. Licensing should be considered as a bare minimum qualification. You may want to argue that everyone does not have an educational opportunity, but that is a different subject.

The point made was that employers will take advantage of people without a degree and pay them less.

The libertine view of the issue as expressed by the Koch brothers is to do away with licensing.

Link

 

[HamburgerHelper]

I have gotten a lot of very strange answers from people with a lot of electrical experience and no degree. There is a very clear demarcation line if you go into anything with depth or requires more knowledge than so and so told me. Maybe, civil engineering is more code based so you can get away with that. They were productive people but someone can only get into something so far without a degree. For a fresh grad, it takes you a little while to realize you can't buy some of what your mentor says whole cloth.

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[JedClampett]

bimr, I read the article. Normal libertarian crap. My comment would be (note how they never allow comments), "let's do away with all licensing, and you get to be the first to go to an unlicensed surgeon."
The history of engineering licensing is pretty interesting, but the push normally came because people were dying. And the people who die are very seldom the ones who decide to use untrained engineers, but totally innocent workers or children.

 

[chicopee]

Roman structures that have been constructed over 2000 years ago and still standing were designed by what we term now non degree engineers.