Not Stamping Engineering Drawings? 3

[sundale]

I am a structural engineer in a consulting engineering firm that specializes in oil and gas pipeline and facility design for large production companies. The brunt of our work is mechanical engineering and controls system engineering (piping and processes), but we also do structural, electrical and civil grading plans. My background is commercial buildings and am new to the oil and gas industry.

My ethical issue stems from the fact that I am the only P.E. who stamps the drawings when issued for construction to the client. All other disciplines do not stamp their work and it is usually checked by senior designers (draftsmen) who are quite good, but not licensed P.E.'s.

I have formally raised an issue with management up to the president of the firm (and is also a P.E.) and everybody opines that "Well, we have been doing this for years and we nor any other consulting firm stamps their engineering drawings is this industry".

My opinion is that it is f%cking crazy (and unethical and illegal) to issue final engineering drawings for a HIGHLY PRESSURIZED FLAMMABLE GAS that are not prepared under the responsible charge of a P.E. If there is an error in the design, the consequences would be expensive and perhaps lethal.

The law is quite clear. Preparing engineering drawings for a client constitutes the practice of engineering and all final engineering drawings prepared by a corporation shall bear the stamp and signature of the P.E. in responsible charge. We have NOBODY in official reponsible charge stamping the drawings we issue in these mechanical, electrical, process and civil disciplines.

I am required to report such issues to The Board if public safety is at risk, which I believe it perhaps is. My future at this firm is obviously limited if I do this and it is likely already been truncated by simply formally raising the issue. Namely, informal discussions and the formal letter was received poorly by management and the discussions so far have been "philosophical" as if laws, public safety and engineering ethics are open to interpretation. From my ethical perspective, I am debating whether I want to associate with firm with this sort of attitude, so my leaving would be mutually acceptable. The problem is that it's a small town and structural jobs are not plentiful and I have a family to support.

I would appreciate any sage advise anyone has to offer me in my quandary.

 

[whyun]

I've been in situations where I was pressured to stamp drawings prepared by others in my former company's branch offices not under my direct responsible charge. In addition, there was another pressure of stamping without my personal review because the project is "overbudget". Though the contents of the drawings were not major "public" structures, I saw it as unethical (to the client) and unfair (to me as a professional). I'm no longer with the firm.

I really hope that you are stamping the sheets relevant only to your area of expertise and not all the other sheets blessed by the senior designers. I have no idea about the AHJ for the types of projects you do but what is their stamping requirement? Is your stamp even required? I would avoid stamping whenever not required by law.

Finally, verify whether your compensation is appropriate for your level of professional liability.

 

[sundale]

Thanks whyun. I only stamp the structural drawings and they are prepared under my direct responsible charge. Nobody stamps any other engineering discipline drawings...

The local jurisdictions typically do not require stamped drawings. My argument is that it is a state law (in the four states I'm licensed anyway) pertaining to the practice of engineering that all final engineering drawings issued to an arm's length client shall be stamped by a P.E. in responsible charge. What the county building department says is not the issue.

 

[BJC]

Check the laws in your state. In most states only things like public buildings, schools, hopitals and the like have to be stamped.
Sometimes lenders and insurance companies want things stamped but it's not a legal requirement.
My experienc with oil companies is that know more than you and they don need no stinking stampl.

 

[JAE]

In most states only things like public buildings, schools, hopitals and the like have to be stamped.

That isn't true, BJC. In most states, ANY building that is designed for private clients must be by a licensed professional. The only exceptions would be in industrial settings where an in-house engineer is designing something for an in-house purpose, on private land, and not open to the public. Also - federal projects generally are exempt from state licensing laws and don't need building permits, but the federal agencies generally require a PE anyway.

 

[zdas04]

Sundale,
You need to be very careful about throwing around words like "unethical" or "illegal" when you do not have a single clue what the hell you are talking about.

In the vast majority of Oil & Gas operations there is no legal or historical requirement to even have an engineer involved in piping design. I've been in fields with thousands of miles of pressurized piping that has been "designed" by folks with a high school education that have never even read the ASME piping codes. The job title of "piping designer" is usually a tech job filled by people who have built pipe but never been to college. The law that you are saying is clear (i.e., that preparing engineering drawings for clients constitutes the practice of engineering and all final engineering drawings prepared by a corporation shall bear the stamp and signature of the P.E. in responsible charge) just isn't so. That quote may apply to buildings and bridges, but if an engineer prepares a furniture layout for an office he doesn't have to stamp it. If he prepares a pipeline design there is not requirement that he be a P.E.

Before you throw this nonsense up in your bosses faces, check your facts because according to the law they are right and you are wrong. We may be talking about a public-policy issue that you can bring up with legislators and regulators, but the way the regulations stand today there are not many situations that require a P.E. stamp on any part of the piping for a pipeline.

Just an aside--when the EPA first proposed that their Spill Prevention Countermeasure Control (SPCC) plans be stamped by a P.E. they were astonished at the fire storm that was created. They quickly were informed that the concept of involving P.E.'s in Oil & Gas was foreign to the industry and in one of the intermediate drafts of the rule revision that requirement was removed (it was later reinstated because of pressure from outside the industry, but it was a close thing).

David

 

[EddyC]

Sundale,

The industry that you are working in falls under one of the PE exemptions. These exemptions are spelled out in most states rules & regulations. I suggest you read the regulations a little bit further. While you may not agree with the PE exemptions (and I don't either), its the way it is.

 

[sundale]

Thanks for your rather harsh reply zdas04. I am asking for advice here and will be more careful with my terminology in the future. Please do the same.

I most carefully read and reread the engineering statutes and it would appear to me that piping design for an arm's length client constitutes the practice of engineering.

"Practice of engineering" means the performance for others of any professional service or creative work requiring engineering education, training, and experience and the application of special knowledge of the mathematical and engineering sciences to such professional services or creative work, including consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning, design, and the observation of construction to evaluate compliance with plans and specifications in connection with the utilization of the forces, energies, and materials of nature in the development, production, and functioning of engineering processes, apparatus, machines, equipment, facilities, structures, buildings, works, or utilities, or any combination or aggregations thereof, employed in or devoted to public or private enterprise or uses.

You are saying that a pipeline design for a client involving hoop and radial stresses, accoustical pulsations, thermal stresses, support stresses, etc. and specifications for operating temperature, corrosion allowance, and maximum working pressure for a complex system of pipes carrying a highly flammable substance constitutes the same amount of engineering expertise as an office furniture layout?

I freely admit being a novice to the oil and gas industry, but it seems to me that this is fairly complex and dangerous stuff one is "designing": exactly what the engineering licensure laws were meant to address.

 

[sundale]

Thanks EddyC. I have Read and reread the exemptions to the practice of engineering. This is not internal engineering for a company's own use, it is not federal work, it is not a generic manufactured product, and it is not strictly acgricultural in nature.

In short, engineering practice exemptions do not apply for oil and gas work in the state in question but perhaps they do for other states.

 

[steve1]

Sundale

I am a PE Civil/Structural who worked in the pipeline industry for a few years. Here’s my storey and commentary.

I was employed by a company that provided pre-engineered products for the natural gas industry that were factory built. These were not small objects, typically 60’ to 100’ long, 12’ wide and high, on skids or inside of precast concrete buildings. My job was to design the foundations for these structures along with miscellaneous other supports for such things as dish antennas and small towers. We almost always received a geotechnical report for the planned site. The projects always involved pressurized gas piping, including tapping into existing gas lines.

The only drawings that were stamped were my foundation plans. The mechanical, electrical, scada, etc parts were quite complex. The lead engineers for each discipline were PE’s, but only in their home states. Now here’s the rub; none of the owners were PE’s. I raised the question of corporate engineering licenses. I was instructed by one of the owners to investigate the requirements for these. It turned out that not all states required the owners to be licensed. Some did, some didn’t (at least in the states where we had projects). You can bet that I felt exposed as the only engineer to stamp any drawings coming out of my firm.

On the other hand this firm did employ a few PE’s and, for the most part, the technicians all seemed qualified on the basis of experience. The mechanical engineer assured me that all pipeline work was done under federal rules and regulations.

I often raised questions about PE requirements and the impression that I got was that it wasn’t a requirement. It seemed to be the way it is.

The firm did pay for the considerable time and effort that I put in to become NCEES certified and I ended up with a dozen PE licenses. These became a good asset when I was laid off as I was able to land a better paid, more interesting job.

I would say that you’re just going to have to accept the situation or seek other employment. In the meantime protect yourself with lots of documents such as written design criteria, memos, emails, etc that show that you are doing the right things to protect the pubic.

Good luck to you.

 

[BobbyNewmark]

sundale is quite right: the PE regulations are extremely broad and vague, while also sounding scary. In many fields there are almost no PEs left because licensing is ambiguous and difficult.

My suggestions for not getting chopped up by the bureaucracy:

1. Do decent work. If your machine was designed with reasonable care and you don't act like a fool, a jury is less likely to smash you.

2. Document defensively: hazard warnings everywhere, performance promises nowhere.

3. Don't get caught. Don't complain, don't attract attention, don't stamp unless somebody asks for it, and so forth.

4. The Boards tend to only come after people who are malicious, incompetent, or ROCKING THE BOAT. They know that if they actually enforced all the licensing regs, the economy would grind to a halt. The Texas Board got handed its ass by their legislature when somebody went after Jack Kilby (inventor of the integrated circuit) for calling himself an engineer.

 

[JStephen]

My two cents worth on the above:

First off, much of the oil and gas work is exempt under industrial exemptions. But, if you read those exemptions, it means that a company designing it's own facilities is exempt. That exemption does not extent to consultants doing work for them. So the electric utilities may be able to design their own facilities without a PE, but if you are acting as an electrical engineering consultant, that exemption does not extend to you.

A second exemption is for "manufactured items". Example: Design of a car doesn't necessarily require a PE. In the case of the skid-mounted equipment above, it is quite likely exempt by virtue of being a manufactured item, but, as noted, that doesn't extend to the foundations. If that skid item is assembled on site, that exemption is much more in doubt, although the rules aren't always clear on that issue.

There are multiple laws that require certain work to be stamped. You may have a building code that requires certain building designs to be stamped. But suppose a consultant designs an outhouse. The building code may not require that to be stamped. BUT, the laws that govern the practice of engineering will quite likely require that consultant to stamp his work, even though the building code doesn't. Some areas don't enforce building codes, but that doesn't mean the practice of engineering is unregulated in those areas- they are two different things. You might compare it to use of a driver's license- you may need it to buy liquor, but just because the liquor store doesn't require it doesn't mean you can drive without it.

The engineering laws tend to be poorly enforced, partly out of ignorance. If you're not licensed, you probably don't spend a lot of time perusing state licensing laws and enforcement actions and it's very very easy to get into situations that you simply ought not to be in. The engineering boards basically depend on complaints as their enforcement mechansism, and as long as nothing blows up, falls down, or people don't get ticked off at each other, you can have a lot of improper work done without any enforcement actions taking place.

There is oftentimes a perception that as long as a customer doesn't require a work to be stamped, that a stamp is not required. In fact, the engineering laws require certain items to be stamped, regardless of whether anyone else cares or not.

One way of looking at this issue is to recognize that doing the same work with more qualified people adds value to that work. Engineering registration is a part of that qualification. The company in question really needs an attitude shift, to recognize that they can do the types of work they are doing now, but do it better and charge accordingly.

 

[BobbyNewmark]

"First off, much of the oil and gas work is exempt under industrial exemptions."

Do you have a citation to back this up for any U.S. state? I find no exemptions in my state's laws.

"A second exemption is for 'manufactured items'."

Citation, please. The laws of my state explicitly extend to even "consumer products ... insofar as they [safeguard] life, health or property". So it takes a PE license to throw together a cheesy rain alarm for your friend who keeps leaving the top down on his convertible. It takes a PE license to design a clock radio, because some granny might use it to tell when to take her blood pressure pills.

"The engineering laws tend to be poorly enforced, partly out of ignorance."

But mostly because they were impossible to adhere to. When I graduated, my state required four CONTINUOUS years of engineering practice as a direct report to a PE. Take a vacation? Get laid off? Get sucked off on business development for a few weeks? The clock started over. You either had to lie, devote your whole life to getting that PE, or write the whole thing off as a bureaucratic fossil. Several generations of young engineers did the latter.

I just looked at my state's laws for the first time in years and they finally seem reasonable. Now there might be a point to trying for a PE.

 

[GTstartup]

I think it's stretching it a bit to say that a clock radio safeguards "life, health or property"

Are you saying that every component on a car was or should have been designed by a PE?

 

[BobbyNewmark]

GTstartup, I'm just going by what the PE laws say. In many jurisdictions, they cover everything under the sun that requires an engineering education to do properly.

"Are you saying that every component on a car was or should have been designed by a PE?"

Many of the components, yes. Several subsystems like steering linkage, brakes, and high-voltage prime mover power are life critical during normal operation, and system integration must avoid numerous smaller risks. Certainly the public deserves better than the new tradition of recalling every 10th model on account of it catches fire while parked.

 

[wannabeSE]

Bobby,
Here is the section on exemption for industies from California's Professional Engineer's Act

http://www.dca.ca.gov/pels/pe_act.pdf

6747. Exemption for industries
(a) This chapter, except for those provisions that apply to civil engineers and civil engineering, shall not apply to the performance of engineering work by a manufacturing, mining, public utility, research and development, or other industrial corporation, or by employees of that corporation, provided that work is in connection with, or incidental to, the products, systems, or services of that corporation or its affiliates.

 

[JAE]

wannabeEIT - that exemption verbiage is pretty common thoughout the US states. I don't know about non-US areas, though.

 

[JStephen]

BobbyN,

For Texas, the pertinent sections are these:
"§ 1001.057. Employee of Private Corporation or Business Entity
(a) This chapter shall not be construed to apply to the activities of a private corporation or other business entity, or the activities of the fulltime
employees or other personnel under the direct supervision and control of the business entity, on or in connection with:
(1) reasonable modifications to existing buildings, facilities, or other fixtures to real property not accessible to the general public
and which are owned, leased, or otherwise occupied by the entity; or
(2) activities related only to the research, development, design, fabrication, production, assembly, integration, or service of
products manufactured by the entity."

"§ 1001.058. Employee of Certain Utilities or Affiliates
(a) A regular full-time employee of a privately owned public utility or cooperative utility or of the utility’s affiliate is exempt from the
licensing requirements of this chapter if the employee:
(1) performs services exclusively for the utility or affiliate; and
(2) does not have the final authority to approve, or the ultimate responsibility for, engineering designs, plans, or specifications
that are to be:
(A) incorporated into fixed works, systems, or facilities on the property of others; or
(B) made available to the public."

I'm not familiar with the rules of every state, but I think most or all of the states I am familiar with have some similar provisions. And I'm not aware of engineering laws getting any looser in the last 20 years- rather the opposite, it seems like.

I'd be curious what state you were referring to that required the 4 continuous years (meaning, no vacations). Most states require 4 years, but I've not heard of anything worded like that. And I'd be curious if the board in question actually interpreted it like that, or if that was someone else's spin on it.

 

[GTstartup]

BobbyN,

My briefcase is a consumer product that will

"[safeguard] life, health or property".

I doubt it was designed by a PE.

I think your interpretation of the PE "laws" is slightly too literal

 

[sundale]

The manufacturing exemption that most states have prescribes that if the same firm performs both the engineering ("in house") and manufacturering of a generic object, then it does not need to be designed by a P.E. This includes many things that are potentially lethal if they were perhaps designed incorrectly, such as an artificial heart, an airplane, or the brake system in your car.

If you provide consulting engineering drawings for a shovel to separate manufacturering company who is your client, then you have performed the practice of engineering and need to stamp your shovel plans.