not up to snuff.

[rowingengineer]

Background;
A gentleman graduated from a university with a BE (civil), then applied to a many local firms looking for work as an engineer, however came up stumps and got a job as a civil draftee with the idea of over time moving into engineering.
The gentleman after 6 years now has a drafting with some engineering job description (design daftsmen). He would like to start to apply for his certification as an engineer.

Issue; the gentleman has requested his supervising engineers (aka my former boss) sign off on reports of his career, they have refused saying they don’t think he has what it takes to be an engineer, also stating that he should have never got his BE as he got it in dubious circumstances (I don’t know the details). I have been approached because I did work at the company to sign off on his reports; I haven’t made up my mind on this yet.

Question; is his supervising engineer the man who should make this call, or should he just sign as appropriate the reports if true, and let the board handle the rest.


An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

 

[IRstuff]

Your bosses are essentially being asked to vouch for this person as a qualified engineer. Seems to me that they're within their purview if they consider him unqualified.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[JAE]

It's up to the former bosses as to whether they should "sign off" on his reports. Typically, if a semi-engineer has some experience I still would agree to serve as a reference but with the full understanding that I have to say honest stuff.

 

[rbulsara]

What is a career report? All anyone can attest to his normal work duties. Which usually does not exceed a few lines. There is something wrong with the picture. I find it hard to believe someone will not help someone advance.

On the other hand the boss has no right to say whether or not he has in him to become an engineer or not. He did pass the exam and got a degree, in that regard why does he need his approval? Perhaps the "report" is not written correctly, if at all needed.

Rafiq Bulsara

http://www.srengineersct.com

 

[rowingengineer]

Rafiq,
For Chartered status (similar to PE) in our part of the world you are required to submit for review detailed career reports stating experience in 25-30 different aspects as defined by our local engineering org. This generally adds up to 15 pages or more. The defining requirements for each category are meant engineering related (as I say meant), for example copied from the book:

C1.5 Identifies constraints on potential engineering solutions
a. Identifies the interrelationship of social, physical, environmental, political, financial and cultural issues with the proposed engineering solutions
b. Identifies professional risks, statutory responsibilities and liabilities
c. Implements Occupational Health and Safety and other statutory requirements
d. Identifies hazards and consequent risks, and initiates appropriate safety and disaster management measures
e. Identifies long term environmental and sustainability issues associated with engineering activities

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

 

[IRstuff]

If, as you say, he was a "design draftsman" then he didn't really fulfill the requirements needed to achieve his certification.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[rbulsara]

rowE:

Ah thanks, I forgot that you are down under! I just took PE to be being in the USA!

And there are people in USA that think only their requirements are odd and cumbersome. (I never thought so. I am happy to be here.)

Rafiq Bulsara

http://www.srengineersct.com

 

[Ron]

RE...I tend to agree with JAE on this. I've been in a similar situation before and I spoke to the individual telling him of my obligation to be honest in my assessment. I did not consider him to be qualified for the examination that he was taking, as I had worked as his direct supervisor for over 15 years. He withdrew me as a reference and went elsewhere. He got the recommendations to take the exam from others and after several tries, passed the test (not engineering...a pseudo-subset).

I've wrestled with whether I should have just gone ahead with my candid assessment and not discussed it with him beforehand (he would possibly have been denied the opportunity to take the exam), but I think I did the right thing.

Rafiq....it sounds like the application in Oz is similar to the PE for the definition of "responsible charge" of engineering works. Some boards are loose on that interpretation, some are tight.

 

[dvd]

The world is full of pompous pricks. The supervising engineer should sign the papers; let the man take his shot at the test. If the test can't weed out the qualified from the unqualified, then the test is a waste of time.

 

[Ron]

dvd...I disagree. The test is not the ultimate decider, just one piece of the qualification apparatus.

 

[rbulsara]

I am with dvd. Plus I have not seen (may be that exist) not seen any forms requiring verification or recommendation for a PE requiring evaluation of his technical skill to be or not granting a PE. But just to testify as his skills were adequate to duties one was performing under their supervision.

I also do not think denial from one or two pricks, ever has stopped anyone getting a PE as long as he is otherwise qualified. The recommendation are required but not necessarily from a particular person.

Heck, I have had told them (truthfully), here is my experience and I cannot find my previous boss or supervisor because either the company no longer exist or it was in a foreign country.


Rafiq Bulsara

http://www.srengineersct.com

 

[hokie66]

RE,
I have lost touch with the current examining criteria here in Australia, but if he is merely asking you to attest that his reports are accurate, I don't see why not to sign. Neither do I see why his boss wouldn't sign, but he must have his reasons.

Is there an exam? I wasn't aware of one.

If you can truly sign his reports but still have concerns about his becoming an engineer, you might want to write to the examining authority who will appoint the interview committee. Let them deal with any such issues.

 

[BJC]

I am with dvd. Has the engineer ask you (rowingengineer)
t0 to be a reference?
If so tell the truth as YOU KNOW it.
I wouldn't put anything in writing like "he got it in dubious circumstances (I don't know the details)."
In very un-general terms if you don't know what your talking about and the issue concerns the reputation of someone you don't know anything about Shut the _ _ _ _ up.
I think it is very unethical to put as much as you have on a world wide web-site. IF POME land is like the USA ( and I would assume it is based on english common law) you could be sued for slander.
This website is supposed to be for PFOFESSIONALS. Dealing in rumors and imcomplete facts seems more like a bunch of imature high school twits, not what I would expect from professionals.

 

[Ron]

BJC...RowingEngineer has done nothing unethical. He has laid out an issue, anonymously, and has asked for input. There is nothing wrong with that...it's one of the many qualities of such a forum.

 

[BJC]

He has not laid out an issue. IT's not based on fact. IF he has the facts he should present them to the board and prevent this gentleman from ever soiling the reputation of all engineers. Once the board has the facts they will decide.

 

[patprimmer]

BJC

By implying rowingengineer is a pome, you just did the same as calling a good old boy from Alabama a Yankee.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[rowingengineer]

There is no “exam”, only an interview (1hr) in regards to the reports with the assessor and two representatives of the institute. You can only fail the interview if during the interview it is found that you have lied, miss-represented facts ect in your reports.

BJC,
Please note the “also stating”, that means my former boss used this as an excuse to the gentleman in his refusal to sign the reports. I have no knowledge of his uni marks nor grading methods used. I have only included this as a reference to my former boss’s thoughts.

I am not looking for advice on my responsibility, I have been asked to sign off on his reports of his work that I have been involved. I am yet to review the reports thoroughly and will decide on my path after I have reviewed the reports thoroughly.

My question was whether a supervising engineer should make the call, as to the fitness of an individual to become a certified engineer.


An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

 

[IRstuff]

"whether a supervising engineer should make the call, as to the fitness of an individual to become a certified engineer"

If not his supervisoring engineer, then who?

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[BJC]

Pat the one I know.

'Originally an acronym for the status of inmates sent to Australia: 'Prisoner of Mother England'.

At first used by the English to describe Australians (as anyone Australian must, obviously, have come from prison), now in a strange refersal used by Australians to designate anyone from England. "
"Oid loik ta waelcum tha pome baastud ta god's awn eu-uth, and ta remoind him we deown't loik stack-ap sticky beeks reound hee."

rowingengineer. Fairly Read and review his reports, he may hit a home run on the third one, sounds like he has two strikes allready.

 

[hokie66]

RE,
I don't think it is correct to say that misrepresentation is the only reason for the interview panel to recommend against an applicant. I have been on review panels, albeit not recently, and the quality of the reports as well as the interview itself certainly were factors. I believe submittals by others concerning the applicant, addressed to the panel, are also considered in some cases.