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NRC to Focus On Industry Driven, "Commercially Viable" Research 8

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rconnor

Mechanical
Sep 4, 2009
556
Although slightly old news for Canadians, I’m unsure of its exposure level outside of Canada and I feel it’s one of the most important stories surrounding the question “Where is Canadian Science Going in the Next 5 Years” and it certainly extends outside the frozen tundra of the North.

The National Research Council of Canada (NRC), Canada’s leading organization for scientific research and development, has announced that it will change its philosophy to become a tool box for industry driven R&D and will focus on “commercially viable” research. John McDougall, the president of the NRC said "Innovation is not valuable unless it has commercial value”. Gary Goodyear, the Canadian Minister of State for Science and Technology, also stated “There is [sic] only two reasons why we do science and technology. First is to create knowledge ... second is to use that knowledge for social and economic benefit. Unfortunately, all too often the knowledge gained is opportunity lost.” In a nutshell, curiosity-driven science out, corporate R&D in (and note that this corporate R&D will be partially funded by the government and using government labs/experts).

For me, this results in the union of embarrassment and anger, as someone in the field of science and technology and as a Canadian citizen. Although not a unique occurrence in Harper’s war on science, it is, perhaps, the most abhorrent.

Before I open the floor to see what my fellow engineers think of this decision, I’ll add a few bullet points on why I feel so strongly about this:
[ul]
[li]How can anyone determine what research will become “commercially viable”[/li]
[li]No one thought Maxwell’s theory of electromagnetism would be “commercially viable” when it came out but look what it led to. Quantum Theory is one of the most counter-intuitive, most abstract concepts around but without it modern day electronics wouldn’t be anything like what they are today.[/li]
[li]If it’s “commercially viable”, why does the government need to subsidize this research for private corporations? If a corporation is too short-sighted to see the value in “commercially viable” R&D, then shouldn’t we allow free-market Darwinism to let it die?[/li]
[li] - This is why I can’t wrap my head around why even the Conservatives would think this is a good idea[/li]
[li]It discourages companies to promote “in house experts” as they can use NRC resources. In fact it encourages companies to abandon in house R&D programs. Why pay your own experts/lab when you can use NRC’s?[/li]
[li] - Shouldn’t promoting “free-loaders” be an anti-Conservative ideology? (or is it ok when it’s a corporate “free-loader” but bad when it's a citizen "free-loader")[/li]
[li]Disconnect between projects with “societal benefit” and “commercial value”. These things, although not mutually exclusive, are certainly not one in the same goal. This difference is exacerbated when projects are industry driven. Industry has no obligation to produce a “societal benefit”, in fact it is legally responsible to operate in the best interest of its shareholders over that of society or even its employees[/li]
[li]Possibly a less pragmatic, more romanticized, argument but one which I hold close to my chest: curiosity driven science is a humanizing endeavour. It provides purpose, place and connectivity. It’s the only enterprise (aside from pure survival/reproduction) that spans across cultures and time. It is our greatest achievement as a species and one which we can all take pride in. To replace curiosity driven science with economic viability is a great perversion of humanity; it makes me feel empty.[/li]
[/ul]What do you think? Brilliant decision that will bolster the economy or short-sighted invasion of science by corporate lackey governments? (or something slightly less hyperbolically melodramatic)
 
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I agree completely. A lot of benefit has occurred by letting the best and brightest toil away in their labs
on whatever their passion is.

Politicians have trouble seeing the world in a statistical nature, such as simultaneously evaluating all prospects at once.

The best solution should be chosen from the spectrum of all possible actions with each weighted by a cost/benefit function
that uses the probability of each possible outcome weighted by the expected result.

This is the recipe for rational and objective government with a long term focus but rarely is it attempted.

I think we as a society use to be better at this. We had a sense of common purpose and took a little bit of a hit for the common good.

For instance in education, we once knew that our country is better overall if our citizens are educated and the cost must be born out for the good of all. Today its more like, " I am not paying taxes for kids at THAT school"

Maybe its a result of affluence and possibly a limit on how affluent a society can get before it begins to turn on itself.






 
To answer your question, I don't know. Some of what you have written may be correct. The value judgement on those outcomes may be in dispute.

I read an interesting op-ed piece that I think takes a neutral perspective on this -
rconnor - you should probably share with the rest of the world what you mean by "Harper's war on science".

Also, for some context: Canada's federally-governing party is called "Conservative". They are relatively right-wing from a Canadian perspective. On a global context, they would be considered fairly centrist - given that there are many entrenched policies that some (our American neighbours) would consider fairly leftist. (Complicated, I know...).
 
We got a lot of commercially viable stuff out of NASA, but that was not any part of their mission... That should be a government hands-off. Then again, the taxpayers of Atlanta just gave a pro football team $300 million. The Falcons were already kind-of commercially viable.

Best to you,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies
 
TGS4,

Sorry, for the lack of details pertaining to Canadian politics, thanks for including some (along with the more neutral article). As for (Stephen) Harper's (the current PM of Canada) "war on science", here is a link to a lengthy list of moves by the our Government.
 
Good list rconnor. I know that everybody loves a good "war on" something (war on drugs, war on terror, etc). Kinda like how every controversy gets appended the adage "-gate". I don't know if I would classify what Harper has done as a war on science so much as a defunding of government science and federal environmental oversight. Some may take a political viewpoint that this is good/bad/otherwise. Certainly for the scientists who were funded by this and now they have no benefactor, it may certainly seem personal.

Without getting into issues of Canadian Constitutional areas of responsibility/jurisdiction, suffice it to say that some of the items on that list were federal duplicates of provincial responsibilities. Nevertheless, there has been a significant defunding of federal scientists and science programs.

I think that there is a place for pure research. However, without mortgaging our future (the US may get away with perpetual deficits, but we can't) something has to give. And, what's the harm in harnessing our nation's best scientists to do applied research for the betterment of the entire economy?

I still don't know if this was a good choice, or not. I'm curious to what others have to say - some outsider perspectives are interesting. However, I think that rconnor and I have provided sufficient background on the history, political or otherwise, of the situation.

Discuss. (rconnor - excellent topic to bring up - thank you!)
 
Big shouty post rconnor!

We had some nice prof from Imperial College give us a talk a while ago. He explained how to get more energy into a turbocharger by varying the turbine's vane angle through the engine cycle, or something like that. All looked good. And clever. Our technology director asked him how that would ever work in a real vehicle, since state-of-the-art mechatronics were not really up to it. "Not my problem, that's yours" was the answer. Absoluetly perfect in my mind. The university prof is in charge of people who think up crazy ideas, we in industry have to make them work. Many ideas fail. Some don't.

I even believe in teaching latin to schoolchildren.

- Steve
 
was it Franklin who, when asked "what's the value of this new fangled electricity thing ?", replied "what's the value of a new born baby ?"

focusing on "commerically viable" research (whatever that means ... what's not viable today may be viable tomorrow) may give you short term benefits, but won't find "game-changers" (sorry)

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
 
For something to be "commercially viable" it must have an identified market. That seems to mean that future government research in Canada will be focused on Engineering problems like making the vanes adjustable on the turbocharger. Good and useful things come from research into improvements, but no ground gets broken. We never get fusion because (in my lay opinion) there is not an evolutionary path to fusion, a revolutionary breakthrough will be required. Some guy who sees the path through the forest will give us long-duration fusion reactions. That guy could be anywhere. He could even be in a government research facility that gets redirected to making a better toaster.

I'm not a fan of federal money directly funding (and controlling) research anyway, but if it has a place it should absolutely be non-commercial. They should be investigating the mysteries of the ocean depths and deep space. They should be doing stuff at least a couple of generations (and 10 would be better) removed from the marketplace. When I got out of college in 1980 the Oil & Gas industry had dozens of top flight research and development centers. Ours was the Tulsa Research Center. They did stuff like develop a piece of software that they sold to IBM as PROFS that later morphed into Outlook, were awarded over 10,000 patents, did pioneering research into hydraulic fracture stimulation, developed protocols for remote-controlled well drilling (never went very far, but led to some breakthroughs in two-way communication of very large datasets that eventually became commercial). They also spent a ton of money on dead end stuff (one guy spent his entire career in Tulsa trying to develop chemicals that could change oil-wet rocks to water-wet rocks, and he spent a decade of that trying to find a way to measure wetability, never came to anything because we couldn't deliver the hydrophillic chemicals far enough into the reservoir).

During the Carter administration the tax laws changed and the special status of R&D expenditures went away and the industry decided that if R&D expenditures were going to get the same tax treatment as any other expenditure then they would have to compete on a near-term risk/reward basis with other projects. 20 years after Jimmy Carter the last of the Oil & Gas industry pure science facilities closed. When you have a 1 in 20 chance of commercial success and a decade's long time horizon, R&D just cannot compete with drilling a 30 day payout well with nearly 80% chance of success. Our industry shifted "research" money to college campuses. Nothing wrong with the research at campuses except the "Publish or Perish" and "what have you done this quarter" mentality. Doing multi-decade projects is rare on college campuses.

I just can't see anything good coming from federal money going to "commercial" research.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"
 
how much did the UK government support the development of the steam engine ?

who paid for this work ? (some forward thinking entrepreneurs with lots of money)


Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
 
TGS4 - You're quite right to question the "war on-" cliche, it's overplayed and over-the-top. I realize now I didn't use quotes around the "war on science" in my original post, which I meant to in order to highlight that it is just jargon. And yes, I was a little hesitant to link to that list because I’m not in agreement with all the points (as you pointed out) but it saved me from having to gather links to each separate point!

Also, thank you for providing a stabilizing tone to the conversation. I actually intended on keeping a neutral tone in order to stimulate debate (and then in my responses begin to open up my opinion)…but then I got swept up in my emotional reaction to this topic as I started to type it up.

SompthingGuy – ya…as I said above, my apologies.

rb1957 – I’d also add that it was the result of the Scottish Enlightenment. During this period, human ingenuity and curiosity (not just in science but the humanities as well) was set free and the long term benefits to society were immense. Human intellect, logic and reason were used to shape and improve society, government, commerce and science for the greater social good. I see acts like this as the opposite of the Enlightenment, where commerce is used to shape society, government and science for greater economic wealth (of a select few).

A few other issues as food for thought:
- Who will own the intellectual property rights of research through an NRC/corporate partnership? (The official statement was that they will come to an “agreement” which sounds a lot like “we haven’t thought about it much but they’ll figure it out”)
- How will this affect university funding/support?
 
zdas04 said:
During the Carter administration the tax laws changed and the special status of R&D expenditures went away and the industry decided that if R&D expenditures were going to get the same tax treatment as any other expenditure then they would have to compete on a near-term risk/reward basis with other projects. 20 years after Jimmy Carter the last of the Oil & Gas industry pure science facilities closed.

Are you sure about that? The only references I found concerning changes to the Federal tax code from that era, relative to the treatment of R&D expenditures, seems to show that these actually occured while Ronald Reagan was President:


John R. Baker, P.E.
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To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 
I remember that I was in college when I heard about the tax law change (1977-1980, most of the Carter years), one of my professors was REALLY angry about it and made sure we all knew what "our" President had done to him. I can't remember what the credit was before that time, but this change was in the same bundle of garbage as the so-called Windfall Profits Tax so it must have been 1980.

The Kemp Roth stuff that you referenced was a half-hearted effort to put the R&D credits back in the law, it didn't come close to putting R&D back on a level playing field with short-term productive projects on a risk/return basis.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"
 
I'm for equal opportunity. I like the serendipity of blue-sky topics. I also like the concept that someone who has a good idea, but needs funding, can apply for a grant - and get it. There is a lot of inbreeding in the grant process, it would be nice to think that deserving researchers are able to get funded.
 
The discussion really need not go farther than this:
>>How can anyone determine what research will become “commercially viable”<<

Of course no one can know the future.

The buzzphrase "Commercially Viable" reminds me of a hugely expensive introduction of a "New Product Development Process" some years ago. The core of the process later became known as "Stage Gate", meaning that nothing was allowed to move from idea toward production unless it was a guaranteed blockbuster success when it was reviewed in detail at every step. The company then sort of imploded, and the zombie shell has managed to produce nothing of note; no surprise there.





Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
 
And maybe this is just a ploy to be able to hand pick who gets funding. Who in there right mind would think politions would do that?
 
The key question is who decides what is "commercially viable"? Obviously from the discussion the companies gaining an advantage from the research will push to have the government fund their special project.

I have actually seen a big company doing a great deal of research in producing plastics from soybean oil. The advantage of a basicly a renewable product competing against an oil product is going to give a significant return on investment. This research happened to occur on a samll university campus meaning there was some support from the university but it was totally a company funded project. Now if funding had been given by a governmental agency it would have still occurred but not totally funded by the company. Saving the company money. Another the rich get richer and everybody else helps pay for it.

Commercially viable research is another give away to companies.

Bill
 
Looks like the road to State capitalism. If you don't like economic freedom, you should be supporting the government at the helm of a central planned economy instead of distributed economic freedom. One difference, when a company pays for their own R&D, there is a natural selection that takes place such that if they have a propensity to choose wrong, they are soon out of business. For the politician/bureaucrat, if they choose wrong on the redistribution of your tax money, they have a tendency to make the claim that the cause for failure was a result of not spending enough money. Hence, more good money is thrown after bad ideas. To do otherwise would require politicians and bureaucrats to be personally responsible for any bad decisions; with the results of them loosing their next election/appointment.
 
This is a politically choreographed method for the government to publicly rationalize funding their politically connected academic constituents. And they expect the masses to see the "validity" of their reasoning. Good luck with that.

Maui

 
I guess with this line doleing out money, they will never understand about the sex lives of insects.
 
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